As I state elsewhere on this thread, Oyster PAYG is valid for use on
the WLL these dfays - and that includes from Clapham Junction.

Yes I know, but on this occasion it will be better value to get a
through ticket or a travelcard. At the weekend, when the Network Card
cap doesn't apply, it may very well be best to buy a return to CJn and
then use Oyster.

Although one problem with Oyster is that it doesn't allow for change
of mode on one fare. So a journey involving two buses, or a bus and
tube, or maybe here - if it's raining I might want to get the Tube to
Shepherds Bush and then WLL - you get charged twice, more than if you
took a journey of equivalent length on the Tube, even changing lines.

Many European transport systems allow you to change mode on a single
ticket, within a certain amount of time - and I think Oyster should be
programmed to do this.

On 5 Dec, 09:27, wrote:
if it's raining I might want to get the Tube to
Shepherds Bush and then WLL - you get charged twice, more than if you
took a journey of equivalent length on the Tube, even changing lines.

No you don't. Oyster PAYG fares are based on the start and end points
of your journey. If you change trains at a recognised interchange,
even if you have to go through barriers or out onto the street, it
counts as a continuation of the same journey. In other words, in your
scenario, the second leg is free.

U

On 5 Dec, 13:35, Mr Thant
wrote:
On 5 Dec, 09:27, wrote:

if it's raining I might want to get the Tube to
Shepherds Bush and then WLL - you get charged twice, more than if you
took a journey of equivalent length on the Tube, even changing lines.

No you don't. Oyster PAYG fares are based on the start and end points
of your journey. If you change trains at a recognised interchange,
even if you have to go through barriers or out onto the street, it
counts as a continuation of the same journey. In other words, in your
scenario, the second leg is free.

So changing between the Tube and the WLL at SB doesn't count as
changing mode?

If I travel from, say, St Paul's to Waterloo via Holborn changing onto
a bus from Kingsway, surely I pay £2.50, £1.50 for the Tube and £1.00
for the bus. If I do the same journey by going on as far as Tottenham
Court Road and get the Northern line it only costs me £1.50. My point
was that you should be able to do the first journey for the same price
as the second - I don't think you can.

On Dec 5, 1:52*pm, wrote:
if it's raining I might want to get the Tube to
Shepherds Bush and then WLL - you get charged twice, more than if you
took a journey of equivalent length on the Tube, even changing lines.

No you don't. Oyster PAYG fares are based on the start and end points
of your journey. If you change trains at a recognised interchange,
even if you have to go through barriers or out onto the street, it
counts as a continuation of the same journey. In other words, in your
scenario, the second leg is free.

So changing between the Tube and the WLL at SB doesn't count as
changing mode?

If I travel from, say, St Paul's to Waterloo via Holborn changing onto
a bus from Kingsway, surely I pay £2.50, £1.50 for the Tube and £1.00
for the bus. *If I do the same journey by going on as far as Tottenham
Court Road and get the Northern line it only costs me £1.50. *My point
was that you should be able to do the first journey for the same price
as the second - I don't think you can.

PAYG on the Overground (and on other NR lines where Oyster is
accepted) is treated the same as PAYG on the tube, and hence a journey
that involves both is only considered as one journey. I think this is
true for the DLR as well.

Buses are different. $deity knows why, although my guess would be
technical implementation reasons rather than an ideological dislike of
mixed-mode bus-rail journey.

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

PAYG on the Overground (and on other NR lines where Oyster is
accepted) is treated the same as PAYG on the tube, and hence a journey
that involves both is only considered as one journey. I think this is
true for the DLR as well.

Buses are different. $deity knows why, although my guess would be
technical implementation reasons rather than an ideological dislike of
mixed-mode bus-rail journey.

I looked this up on the TfL website and it seems to be true. I have
to admit I didn't realise. Probably because I have only got my Oyster
since moving out of London, and my trips to London are now generally
confined more to the centre for both business and pleasure - so I am
less likely to use Overground services. On top of which there have
been a lot of changes in the last year or so. I know in the past I
have avoided using DLR because I thought I would be charged extra, but
then the stations are close together and I often like to walk anyway.

I suppose buses are different because there is no "end" checkout. But
they could easily bring in a rule whereby if you used a bus within,
say 30 minutes of the start of a recently completed Tube journey, you
wouldn't be charged.

wrote:
PAYG on the Overground (and on other NR lines where Oyster is
accepted) is treated the same as PAYG on the tube, and hence a
journey that involves both is only considered as one journey. I
think this is true for the DLR as well.

Buses are different. $deity knows why, although my guess would be
technical implementation reasons rather than an ideological dislike
of mixed-mode bus-rail journey.

I looked this up on the TfL website and it seems to be true. I have
to admit I didn't realise.

It is valid for any pair of LU/LO/DLR/NR stations where the gates are
programmed for 'out of station interchange', or OSIs, however the list of
OSIs is not formally published. Station pairs explicitly linked on the
latest tube map, eg White City/Wood Lane, or Shepherds Bush LU/LO are OSIs;
as are implicit pairs like the two Hammersmiths. However it is incorrect to
assume all journeys involving a short walk outside the barriers will be
linked, but hopefully you have the picture now.

Paul S

On Fri, 5 Dec 2008 16:23:25 -0000, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

wrote:
PAYG on the Overground (and on other NR lines where Oyster is
accepted) is treated the same as PAYG on the tube, and hence a
journey that involves both is only considered as one journey. I
think this is true for the DLR as well.

Buses are different. $deity knows why, although my guess would be
technical implementation reasons rather than an ideological dislike
of mixed-mode bus-rail journey.

I looked this up on the TfL website and it seems to be true. I have
to admit I didn't realise.

It is valid for any pair of LU/LO/DLR/NR stations where the gates are
programmed for 'out of station interchange', or OSIs, however the list of
OSIs is not formally published. Station pairs explicitly linked on the
latest tube map, eg White City/Wood Lane, or Shepherds Bush LU/LO are OSIs;
as are implicit pairs like the two Hammersmiths. However it is incorrect to
assume all journeys involving a short walk outside the barriers will be
linked, but hopefully you have the picture now.

The current list of OSIs has been compiled by London Reconnections and
verified by TfL.

http://londonreconnections.blogspot....s-current.html

--
Paul C

On Fri, 5 Dec 2008 06:28:46 -0800 (PST), John B
wrote:

Buses are different. $deity knows why, although my guess would be
technical implementation reasons rather than an ideological dislike of
mixed-mode bus-rail journey.

Even between buses it doesn't give a discount, though. Surely it
would be logical to allow a second free touch-in on a bus if the
previous one was less than, say, an hour ago? That can't be hard to
implement.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

On Fri, 05 Dec 2008 19:43:25 GMT, (Neil
Williams) wrote:

On Fri, 5 Dec 2008 06:28:46 -0800 (PST), John B
wrote:

Buses are different. $deity knows why, although my guess would be
technical implementation reasons rather than an ideological dislike of
mixed-mode bus-rail journey.

Even between buses it doesn't give a discount, though. Surely it
would be logical to allow a second free touch-in on a bus if the
previous one was less than, say, an hour ago? That can't be hard to
implement.

It might be logical but it would also cost a great deal of money in
terms of lost revenue. Hong Kong operators have used service cuts to
remove through services where a bus to bus interchange can be put in
place to give little or no financial penalty from changing buses. They
tend to run without fare subsidy so that sort of change to services is
needed to "finance" the lost revenue.

It's possible that over time ridership increases would compensate for
the lost revenue but it would still require short term funding. I
believe New York ended up with more revenue overall a few years after it
implemented free transfer (on PAYG Metrocard) between Subway and Bus to
give one fare for a through journey using both modes. TfL simply doesn't
have the cash to fund such a fundamental change. The other risk would
be that if ridership really did accelerate off the back of that fare
initiative that costs of providing contracted bus services would
increase thus making the cost impacts greater. I'm ignoring the benefit
side of the equation for now.
--
Paul C

But surely all you would need to do is to set other fares to
compensate? IMO this should have been factored in when they designed
the system: it's what most European systems do, and you can still get
transfare tickets in Newcastle, for example.

In any case, I am sure a lot of people will be making decisions based
on the cost. If travelling on the journey I gave as an example, I
would currently change at TCR for the Northern Line. If I could use
the bus for free, I would change at Holborn for a bus as I usually
reckon this is quicker. So no additional usage.