On 13 Dec, 14:39, Roland Perry wrote:

In message
, at
06:07:10 on Sat, 13 Dec 2008, Mizter T remarked:

No standard gates that I've ever come across are bi-directional at the
same time - that would cause a total nightmare with people walking
head-first into each other all the time!

The 30p turnstiles at station toilets.


Good point! I have almost walked into people using these - or more to
the point they've almost walked into me in a distracted fashion whilst
they were on their way out.

I must say that I'm a fan (if that's not too odd a thing to say!) of
the facilities at St. Pancras - very clean and free to use. I suppose
my usage of them is being subsidised by frequent Eurostar and EMT
travellers (such as yourself), stations shoppers and Champagne
quaffers - so thanks!

On 13 Dec, 14:10, Paul Corfield wrote:

[Ungated Waterloo W&C platforms]

There is no practical or safe way of gating Waterloo W&C. *The long
gallery is too narrow and to place them at the ends of the ramps /
stairs would offer too little space. Also it is madness to place gates
at the tops of stairs or ramps with no reservoir or run off area. *The
same argument applies to the exits at Waterloo - gates would be placed
in corridors or very busy circulating areas. *I understand there are
huge queues at Waterloo for the W&C in the peaks and that these extend
right up the stairs and ramps - another factor making gating unsafe and
impractical. * There is no point in sacrificing common sense just to
stick gates in and I say that as an advocate of them!


In this context 'safety first' makes absolute sense.

Re the W&C overcrowding - I finally managed to pursuade someone I know
who works on Queen Vic Street in the City that instead of bitching
about the packed W&C line it would just be easier and more relaxing if
they just walked, and now she's full of the joys of the non-wobbly
Millenium Bridge, the Tate Modern and the pubs in the backstreets of
Waterloo!


I wasn't aware that the DLR corridor gateline had gone at Bank as it's
yonks since I have been there. However the LU system is not fully gated
and never, ever will be in my view. There are too many places where
cross platform interchange exists and where it is completely impossible
to gate that there is always a risk of "leakage". *


I think I'm right in saying that in days of yore the W&C platforms at
Bank were ungated - that's when there were gates along the passageway
to the DLR and the rest of the station (i.e. the passageway with the
tunneling shield embedded in it). Then a few years ago the W&C
platforms were gated, thus bringing them inside the 'fare-paid zone'
of the rest of the station - hence the gates in the aforementioned
passageway were removed (though you can still see the marks on the
floor and at least until fairly recently there was an empty glass-
fronted control cabinet for the gates still in place).


This is why LU uses validators for such locations where there is a
boundary between fare systems - I devised the concept of the Prestige
validator and wrote it into the specification. *At that time I was not
aware that it would become quite so well used at places like DLR and
Tramlink and NR locations but generally it works. *I'd prefer there to
be more publicity to aid passengers using them so the circumstances in
which you touch or not were clearer.


Aha, so you're behind the standalone validators then - I was under the
impression that Kulveer dreamt up the whole Prestige system himself...
I jest, I jest!

Interesting that you didn't think they would be so widespread - what
was the thinking about the DLR and Prestige then, were you expecting
DLR not to participate in PAYG? And did you and the team think
National Rail stations would mostly be gated, or had you given up in
exasperation of any idea that the railways might join in too?

Mizter T wrote:

No standard gates that I've ever come across are bi-directional at the
same time - that would cause a total nightmare with people walking
head-first into each other all the time! Instead gates can simply be
switched from one direction to the other as required by traffic flow.

Well lets hope the staff at Waterloo are more savy than those at Liverpool
Street. The high number platforms' gateline is frequently set too heavily in
the wrong direction for the peak flow, and has in and outs scattered across.

wrote:

When do they plan to install gates for the Waterloo & City?

You don't need them at Waterloo as Bank is gated and there are no
intermediate stops.

So? You can get transfer onto another line or the DLR via the passageway.

Anyone remember when there was a gateline in the passageway, even though it
was years after London Underground had taken control of the line?

I wonder why they didn't retain that gateline as an internal barrier (as
with the Jubilee at Stratford). Of course it would mean another station that
you'd need a huge book to understand how to use Oyster with!

Mizter T wrote:

By security I take it you mean fare checking (or 'revenue inspection'
- but I dislike that phrase because I think it's very narrow) - not
quite the same thing in my mind but of course they overlap.
Interesting thought - I hadn't considered the difference six car
trains (or three car - depending on how you look at it!) might make to
checking tickets. Most DLR stations simply ain't set up to accomodate
tickets gates, so I dare say that if there is deemed to be an issue
then teams of roving inspectors would fit the bill - I don't think
I've ever come across such a thing on a DLR train actually, though I
have seen ticket checking teams at stations a few times.

I have a few times on the Stratford branch. Perhaps that's also because
Stratford is a nightmare for knowing how to use Oyster correctly when
interchanging (especially from tickets).

On 13 Dec, 15:58, "Tim Roll-Pickering"
wrote:

Mizter T wrote:
By security I take it you mean fare checking (or 'revenue inspection'
- but I dislike that phrase because I think it's very narrow) - not
quite the same thing in my mind but of course they overlap.
Interesting thought - I hadn't considered the difference six car
trains (or three car - depending on how you look at it!) might make to
checking tickets. Most DLR stations simply ain't set up to accomodate
tickets gates, so I dare say that if there is deemed to be an issue
then teams of roving inspectors would fit the bill - I don't think
I've ever come across such a thing on a DLR train actually, though I
have seen ticket checking teams at stations a few times.

I have a few times on the Stratford branch. Perhaps that's also because
Stratford is a nightmare for knowing how to use Oyster correctly when
interchanging (especially from tickets).

IME there isn't really an issue here - at least there isn't a
technical issue, the issue is with regards to people getting
unneccesarily worried about it which is understandable as there isn't
any guidance.

Touching on Oyster interchange validators at Stratford or similar
locations isn't necessary if one is using PAYG from point A (e.g.
Pudding Mill Lane on the DLR) to point B (e.g. Leyton on the Central
line) as one touches-in and out at the start/end of that journey.
However if one does touch on an interchange validator it doesn't
matter - all that happens is that the journey would then be extended
from Stratford to Leyton when one touched-out at the latter.

In other words one does not have to use the interchange validators
whatsoever if one is merely interchanging there as part of an overall
PAYG journey, but nothing bad happens if one does.

(It's worth noting that these interchange validators - i.e. within
gated stations - are set up differently from those in use elsewhere at
ungated stations on the DLR and indeed at a number of LU, LO and
National Rail stations - the latter are set up as entry & exit
validators, and once you've touched on these the system will regard
your journey as either having started or finished.)

Many (inc. Paul C) have said that better information should be
provided - I suspect the basic problem with providing this information
is that it might assist people in working out the potential loopholes
that are inherent with interchange validators, something I've hinted
at in the past though I note one contributor to this ng recently laid
it out in a straightforward manner. In other words spelling out
exactly how they work will assist people to abuse the system.

On Sat, 13 Dec 2008 15:56:33 -0000, "Tim Roll-Pickering"
wrote:

wrote:

When do they plan to install gates for the Waterloo & City?

You don't need them at Waterloo as Bank is gated and there are no
intermediate stops.

So? You can get transfer onto another line or the DLR via the passageway.

Anyone remember when there was a gateline in the passageway, even though it
was years after London Underground had taken control of the line?

I wonder why they didn't retain that gateline as an internal barrier (as
with the Jubilee at Stratford). Of course it would mean another station that
you'd need a huge book to understand how to use Oyster with!

You have answered your own question. The old DLR gateline was set to be
an OSI to get from the "closed" part of Bank to the "open" W&C.
Nonetheless LU struggled to put staff at that gateline when LU did not
have responsibility for the W&C. It was therefore a low priority and
often left open IME.

Over the years pressure grew to control fraud on the W&C once it was in
LU control. In theory you could have retained the DLR gateline and put
the new W&C one in but it would mean two sets of gates within
centimetres of each other. Although I was not involved in the actual
implementation of the W&C gates I would guess the argument was that it
was more sensible to put the DLR corridor within the paid area
controlled by the W&C gateline.

The Stratford JLE gateline is always for interchange and affords no
direct exit to the street at all and thus does not have the
complications of Bank to factor in.

--
Paul C

Walter Briscoe wrote:

I gave up an attempt to use the W&C from Waterloo at about 0830. The crowd
extended to the chocolate shop. I was surprised more people did not
divert. I did not have time to see how long the delay was. BTW, why do
trains to Bank wait outside the station rather than on the platform? This
is particularly noticeable and irritating off-peak.

It's been ten years since I used it for my morning school commute at about
that time, but in general I found that the crowd does move quite a bit once
a train arrives. The regulars soon work out how to work the crowd and get a
train quickly.

Mizter T wrote:

No standard gates that I've ever come across are bi-directional at the
same time - that would cause a total nightmare with people walking
head-first into each other all the time! Instead gates can simply be
switched from one direction to the other as required by traffic flow.

The Cubic *wide* gates have "Full-Wide", "Half-Wide" and "First Come,
First Served" settings.

The latter has the gate in the fully closed position by default (as
opposed to entry or exit), and will open in the appropriate direction
when a valid ticket or Oyster is presented.

Cheers,

Barry

Paul Corfield wrote:

Over the years pressure grew to control fraud on the W&C once it was in
LU control. In theory you could have retained the DLR gateline and put
the new W&C one in but it would mean two sets of gates within
centimetres of each other. Although I was not involved in the actual
implementation of the W&C gates I would guess the argument was that it
was more sensible to put the DLR corridor within the paid area
controlled by the W&C gateline.

I'm a little confused as I thought the DLR corridor was always part of the
paid area. (Is it the passageway ending at that old gateline or am I
thinking of something else?)

The Stratford JLE gateline is always for interchange and affords no
direct exit to the street at all and thus does not have the
complications of Bank to factor in.

Yes but try explaining to anyone how all the various interchange
combinations must be done on Oyster! ;-)