"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 13 Dec 2008 11:39:58 -0000, wrote:

[waterloo]

When do they plan to install gates for the Waterloo & City?

You don't need them at Waterloo as Bank is gated and there are no
intermediate stops.

So? You can get transfer onto another line or the DLR via the passageway.

On 13 Dec, 13:52, wrote:

"Paul Corfield" wrote:

On Sat, 13 Dec 2008 11:39:58 -0000, wrote:

[waterloo]

When do they plan to install gates for the Waterloo & City?

You don't need them at Waterloo as Bank is gated and there are no
intermediate stops.

So? You can get transfer onto another line or the DLR via the passageway.

The point Mr Thant is making is that in a sense Waterloo W&C line
offers ungated access to the LU network. As a response I'd say that
it's pretty much impossible to enclose the LU network in a
hermetically sealed bubble.

"Mizter T" wrote ...
You don't need them at Waterloo as Bank is gated and there are no
intermediate stops.
So? You can get transfer onto another line or the DLR via the passageway.
The point Mr Thant is making is that in a sense Waterloo W&C line
offers ungated access to the LU network. As a response I'd say that
it's pretty much impossible to enclose the LU network in a
hermetically sealed bubble.

You can enter via the Finsbury Park - Moorgate link, too, and I'm sure there
are others. But so long as one end or the other is gated, 99.9% of journeys
will be monitored at some point.

Plus it's only a question of time before DLR is under pressure to improve
security, especially once the six-car trains get moving.
--

Andrew

On 13 Dec, 14:46, "Andrew Heenan" wrote:

"Mizter T" wrote ...

You don't need them at Waterloo as Bank is gated and there are no
intermediate stops.
So? You can get transfer onto another line or the DLR via the passageway.
The point Mr Thant is making is that in a sense Waterloo W&C line
offers ungated access to the LU network. As a response I'd say that
it's pretty much impossible to enclose the LU network in a
hermetically sealed bubble.

You can enter via the Finsbury Park - Moorgate link, too, and I'm sure there
are others. But so long as one end or the other is gated, 99.9% of journeys
will be monitored at some point.

There are many others but I'm not going to start making a list of
them! Agree in essence about the point re one or other end of the
journey being gated, but of course there are numerous journeys where
neither end is gated - again I've no intention of making a list of
them! As Paul C says downthread, the system is permeable and this will
always be the case - gates help but they are not a solution to fare
evasion in and of themselves.


Plus it's only a question of time before DLR is under pressure to improve
security, especially once the six-car trains get moving.


By security I take it you mean fare checking (or 'revenue inspection'
- but I dislike that phrase because I think it's very narrow) - not
quite the same thing in my mind but of course they overlap.
Interesting thought - I hadn't considered the difference six car
trains (or three car - depending on how you look at it!) might make to
checking tickets. Most DLR stations simply ain't set up to accomodate
tickets gates, so I dare say that if there is deemed to be an issue
then teams of roving inspectors would fit the bill - I don't think
I've ever come across such a thing on a DLR train actually, though I
have seen ticket checking teams at stations a few times.

Mizter T wrote:

By security I take it you mean fare checking (or 'revenue inspection'
- but I dislike that phrase because I think it's very narrow) - not
quite the same thing in my mind but of course they overlap.
Interesting thought - I hadn't considered the difference six car
trains (or three car - depending on how you look at it!) might make to
checking tickets. Most DLR stations simply ain't set up to accomodate
tickets gates, so I dare say that if there is deemed to be an issue
then teams of roving inspectors would fit the bill - I don't think
I've ever come across such a thing on a DLR train actually, though I
have seen ticket checking teams at stations a few times.

I have a few times on the Stratford branch. Perhaps that's also because
Stratford is a nightmare for knowing how to use Oyster correctly when
interchanging (especially from tickets).

On 13 Dec, 15:58, "Tim Roll-Pickering"
wrote:

Mizter T wrote:
By security I take it you mean fare checking (or 'revenue inspection'
- but I dislike that phrase because I think it's very narrow) - not
quite the same thing in my mind but of course they overlap.
Interesting thought - I hadn't considered the difference six car
trains (or three car - depending on how you look at it!) might make to
checking tickets. Most DLR stations simply ain't set up to accomodate
tickets gates, so I dare say that if there is deemed to be an issue
then teams of roving inspectors would fit the bill - I don't think
I've ever come across such a thing on a DLR train actually, though I
have seen ticket checking teams at stations a few times.

I have a few times on the Stratford branch. Perhaps that's also because
Stratford is a nightmare for knowing how to use Oyster correctly when
interchanging (especially from tickets).

IME there isn't really an issue here - at least there isn't a
technical issue, the issue is with regards to people getting
unneccesarily worried about it which is understandable as there isn't
any guidance.

Touching on Oyster interchange validators at Stratford or similar
locations isn't necessary if one is using PAYG from point A (e.g.
Pudding Mill Lane on the DLR) to point B (e.g. Leyton on the Central
line) as one touches-in and out at the start/end of that journey.
However if one does touch on an interchange validator it doesn't
matter - all that happens is that the journey would then be extended
from Stratford to Leyton when one touched-out at the latter.

In other words one does not have to use the interchange validators
whatsoever if one is merely interchanging there as part of an overall
PAYG journey, but nothing bad happens if one does.

(It's worth noting that these interchange validators - i.e. within
gated stations - are set up differently from those in use elsewhere at
ungated stations on the DLR and indeed at a number of LU, LO and
National Rail stations - the latter are set up as entry & exit
validators, and once you've touched on these the system will regard
your journey as either having started or finished.)

Many (inc. Paul C) have said that better information should be
provided - I suspect the basic problem with providing this information
is that it might assist people in working out the potential loopholes
that are inherent with interchange validators, something I've hinted
at in the past though I note one contributor to this ng recently laid
it out in a straightforward manner. In other words spelling out
exactly how they work will assist people to abuse the system.

Mizter T wrote:

I have a few times on the Stratford branch. Perhaps that's also because
Stratford is a nightmare for knowing how to use Oyster correctly when
interchanging (especially from tickets).

IME there isn't really an issue here - at least there isn't a
technical issue, the issue is with regards to people getting
unneccesarily worried about it which is understandable as there isn't
any guidance.

Well I think that makes it a problem if the conscientious visitor (or for
that matter someone such as myself when arriving on mainline on a paper
ticket and transferring to Oyster there) can't easily comprehend it so that
they can have confidence they've used it properly.

In other words one does not have to use the interchange validators
whatsoever if one is merely interchanging there as part of an overall
PAYG journey, but nothing bad happens if one does.

Ah. I'm also thinking of exiting the station - as well as the double
barriers to get out of the Jubilee line there are also platform readers with
signs that imply that all PAYG (or any Oyster) users must touch on them.

(It's worth noting that these interchange validators - i.e. within
gated stations - are set up differently from those in use elsewhere at
ungated stations on the DLR and indeed at a number of LU, LO and
National Rail stations - the latter are set up as entry & exit
validators, and once you've touched on these the system will regard
your journey as either having started or finished.)

So do they allow one to actually finish a PAYG journey? Supposing one is
travelling from Bow Church to Forest Gate, starting on Oyster but switching
over to a paper ticket for the last stretch of the journey - will a platform
reader end the Oyster section?

And for that matter do the Jubilee barriers work to both interchange Canning
Town to Leyton and finish the Oyster section of Canning Town to non-Oyster,
or does the latter require touching out on the platform barriers as well?

Many (inc. Paul C) have said that better information should be
provided - I suspect the basic problem with providing this information
is that it might assist people in working out the potential loopholes
that are inherent with interchange validators, something I've hinted
at in the past though I note one contributor to this ng recently laid
it out in a straightforward manner. In other words spelling out
exactly how they work will assist people to abuse the system.

So instead it encourages people to get confused and make mistakes because
they don't know and can't find out how to do it correctly?

On Dec 13, 4:47*pm, Mizter T wrote:
On 13 Dec, 15:58, "Tim Roll-Pickering"
wrote:

Mizter T wrote:
By security I take it you mean fare checking (or 'revenue inspection'
- but I dislike that phrase because I think it's very narrow) - not
quite the same thing in my mind but of course they overlap.
Interesting thought - I hadn't considered the difference six car
trains (or three car - depending on how you look at it!) might make to
checking tickets. Most DLR stations simply ain't set up to accomodate
tickets gates, so I dare say that if there is deemed to be an issue
then teams of roving inspectors would fit the bill - I don't think
I've ever come across such a thing on a DLR train actually, though I
have seen ticket checking teams at stations a few times.

I have a few times on the Stratford branch. Perhaps that's also because
Stratford is a nightmare for knowing how to use Oyster correctly when
interchanging (especially from tickets).

IME there isn't really an issue here - at least there isn't a
technical issue, the issue is with regards to people getting
unneccesarily worried about it which is understandable as there isn't
any guidance.

Touching on Oyster interchange validators at Stratford or similar
locations isn't necessary if one is using PAYG from point A (e.g.
Pudding Mill Lane on the DLR) to point B (e.g. Leyton on the Central
line) as one touches-in and out at the start/end of that journey.
However if one does touch on an interchange validator it doesn't
matter - all that happens is that the journey would then be extended
from Stratford to Leyton when one touched-out at the latter.

In other words one does not have to use the interchange validators
whatsoever if one is merely interchanging there as part of an overall
PAYG journey, but nothing bad happens if one does.

(It's worth noting that these interchange validators - i.e. within
gated stations - are set up differently from those in use elsewhere at
ungated stations on the DLR and indeed at a number of LU, LO and
National Rail stations - the latter are set up as entry & exit
validators, and once you've touched on these the system will regard
your journey as either having started or finished.)

Many (inc. Paul C) have said that better information should be
provided - I suspect the basic problem with providing this information
is that it might assist people in working out the potential loopholes
that are inherent with interchange validators, something I've hinted
at in the past though I note one contributor to this ng recently laid
it out in a straightforward manner. In other words spelling out
exactly how they work will assist people to abuse the system.

Much as I admire your knowledgeable and good-tempered contributions,
that has got to be the most ridiculous thing I've ever read.

Keeping the rules a secret in order to increase compliance with the
rules? I hardly think so, although it might catch more people out, if
that's the intention.

"Mizter T" wrote ...
Plus it's only a question of time before DLR is under pressure to improve
security, especially once the six-car trains get moving.
By security I take it you mean fare checking (or 'revenue inspection'
- but I dislike that phrase because I think it's very narrow) - not
quite the same thing in my mind but of course they overlap.
Interesting thought - I hadn't considered the difference six car
trains (or three car - depending on how you look at it!) might make to
checking tickets. Most DLR stations simply ain't set up to accomodate
tickets gates, so I dare say that if there is deemed to be an issue
then teams of roving inspectors would fit the bill - I don't think
I've ever come across such a thing on a DLR train actually, though I
have seen ticket checking teams at stations a few times.

In the early days (2 car trains), I rarely travelled without the 'nondriver'
inspecting my ticket; this pretty much died out when they went 4-car.
--

Andrew

On Sat, 13 Dec 2008 06:02:00 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:

The point Mr Thant is making is that in a sense Waterloo W&C line
offers ungated access to the LU network

So, last time I checked, did Kensington Olympia.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.