On 13 Dec, 14:46, "Andrew Heenan" wrote:

"Mizter T" wrote ...

You don't need them at Waterloo as Bank is gated and there are no
intermediate stops.
So? You can get transfer onto another line or the DLR via the passageway.
The point Mr Thant is making is that in a sense Waterloo W&C line
offers ungated access to the LU network. As a response I'd say that
it's pretty much impossible to enclose the LU network in a
hermetically sealed bubble.

You can enter via the Finsbury Park - Moorgate link, too, and I'm sure there
are others. But so long as one end or the other is gated, 99.9% of journeys
will be monitored at some point.

There are many others but I'm not going to start making a list of
them! Agree in essence about the point re one or other end of the
journey being gated, but of course there are numerous journeys where
neither end is gated - again I've no intention of making a list of
them! As Paul C says downthread, the system is permeable and this will
always be the case - gates help but they are not a solution to fare
evasion in and of themselves.


Plus it's only a question of time before DLR is under pressure to improve
security, especially once the six-car trains get moving.


By security I take it you mean fare checking (or 'revenue inspection'
- but I dislike that phrase because I think it's very narrow) - not
quite the same thing in my mind but of course they overlap.
Interesting thought - I hadn't considered the difference six car
trains (or three car - depending on how you look at it!) might make to
checking tickets. Most DLR stations simply ain't set up to accomodate
tickets gates, so I dare say that if there is deemed to be an issue
then teams of roving inspectors would fit the bill - I don't think
I've ever come across such a thing on a DLR train actually, though I
have seen ticket checking teams at stations a few times.

Mizter T wrote:

By security I take it you mean fare checking (or 'revenue inspection'
- but I dislike that phrase because I think it's very narrow) - not
quite the same thing in my mind but of course they overlap.
Interesting thought - I hadn't considered the difference six car
trains (or three car - depending on how you look at it!) might make to
checking tickets. Most DLR stations simply ain't set up to accomodate
tickets gates, so I dare say that if there is deemed to be an issue
then teams of roving inspectors would fit the bill - I don't think
I've ever come across such a thing on a DLR train actually, though I
have seen ticket checking teams at stations a few times.

I have a few times on the Stratford branch. Perhaps that's also because
Stratford is a nightmare for knowing how to use Oyster correctly when
interchanging (especially from tickets).

On 13 Dec, 15:58, "Tim Roll-Pickering"
wrote:

Mizter T wrote:
By security I take it you mean fare checking (or 'revenue inspection'
- but I dislike that phrase because I think it's very narrow) - not
quite the same thing in my mind but of course they overlap.
Interesting thought - I hadn't considered the difference six car
trains (or three car - depending on how you look at it!) might make to
checking tickets. Most DLR stations simply ain't set up to accomodate
tickets gates, so I dare say that if there is deemed to be an issue
then teams of roving inspectors would fit the bill - I don't think
I've ever come across such a thing on a DLR train actually, though I
have seen ticket checking teams at stations a few times.

I have a few times on the Stratford branch. Perhaps that's also because
Stratford is a nightmare for knowing how to use Oyster correctly when
interchanging (especially from tickets).

IME there isn't really an issue here - at least there isn't a
technical issue, the issue is with regards to people getting
unneccesarily worried about it which is understandable as there isn't
any guidance.

Touching on Oyster interchange validators at Stratford or similar
locations isn't necessary if one is using PAYG from point A (e.g.
Pudding Mill Lane on the DLR) to point B (e.g. Leyton on the Central
line) as one touches-in and out at the start/end of that journey.
However if one does touch on an interchange validator it doesn't
matter - all that happens is that the journey would then be extended
from Stratford to Leyton when one touched-out at the latter.

In other words one does not have to use the interchange validators
whatsoever if one is merely interchanging there as part of an overall
PAYG journey, but nothing bad happens if one does.

(It's worth noting that these interchange validators - i.e. within
gated stations - are set up differently from those in use elsewhere at
ungated stations on the DLR and indeed at a number of LU, LO and
National Rail stations - the latter are set up as entry & exit
validators, and once you've touched on these the system will regard
your journey as either having started or finished.)

Many (inc. Paul C) have said that better information should be
provided - I suspect the basic problem with providing this information
is that it might assist people in working out the potential loopholes
that are inherent with interchange validators, something I've hinted
at in the past though I note one contributor to this ng recently laid
it out in a straightforward manner. In other words spelling out
exactly how they work will assist people to abuse the system.

Mizter T wrote:

I have a few times on the Stratford branch. Perhaps that's also because
Stratford is a nightmare for knowing how to use Oyster correctly when
interchanging (especially from tickets).

IME there isn't really an issue here - at least there isn't a
technical issue, the issue is with regards to people getting
unneccesarily worried about it which is understandable as there isn't
any guidance.

Well I think that makes it a problem if the conscientious visitor (or for
that matter someone such as myself when arriving on mainline on a paper
ticket and transferring to Oyster there) can't easily comprehend it so that
they can have confidence they've used it properly.

In other words one does not have to use the interchange validators
whatsoever if one is merely interchanging there as part of an overall
PAYG journey, but nothing bad happens if one does.

Ah. I'm also thinking of exiting the station - as well as the double
barriers to get out of the Jubilee line there are also platform readers with
signs that imply that all PAYG (or any Oyster) users must touch on them.

(It's worth noting that these interchange validators - i.e. within
gated stations - are set up differently from those in use elsewhere at
ungated stations on the DLR and indeed at a number of LU, LO and
National Rail stations - the latter are set up as entry & exit
validators, and once you've touched on these the system will regard
your journey as either having started or finished.)

So do they allow one to actually finish a PAYG journey? Supposing one is
travelling from Bow Church to Forest Gate, starting on Oyster but switching
over to a paper ticket for the last stretch of the journey - will a platform
reader end the Oyster section?

And for that matter do the Jubilee barriers work to both interchange Canning
Town to Leyton and finish the Oyster section of Canning Town to non-Oyster,
or does the latter require touching out on the platform barriers as well?

Many (inc. Paul C) have said that better information should be
provided - I suspect the basic problem with providing this information
is that it might assist people in working out the potential loopholes
that are inherent with interchange validators, something I've hinted
at in the past though I note one contributor to this ng recently laid
it out in a straightforward manner. In other words spelling out
exactly how they work will assist people to abuse the system.

So instead it encourages people to get confused and make mistakes because
they don't know and can't find out how to do it correctly?

On 13 Dec, 18:26, "Tim Roll-Pickering"
wrote:

Mizter T wrote:
I have a few times on the Stratford branch. Perhaps that's also because
Stratford is a nightmare for knowing how to use Oyster correctly when
interchanging (especially from tickets).

IME there isn't really an issue here - at least there isn't a
technical issue, the issue is with regards to people getting
unneccesarily worried about it which is understandable as there isn't
any guidance.

Well I think that makes it a problem if the conscientious visitor (or for
that matter someone such as myself when arriving on mainline on a paper
ticket and transferring to Oyster there) can't easily comprehend it so that
they can have confidence they've used it properly.


I didn't really phrase what I said earlier very well - I think in
essence I agree with you, in that there isn't any guidance offered for
those who might seek it. My basic point was that in these situations
the system is flexible and can handle extra, unnecessary validations.

For someone arriving on a paper ticket then they obviously need to
touch-in if they are to be using PAYG for the rest of their journey -
either on the standalone validators on the Central Line platforms, or
in the passageway to the DLR platforms, or by the NLL platforms, or
through the unusual 'internal' gates in front of the Jubilee line
platforms - and vice-versa to end a PAYG journey and move over on to a
paper ticket.

I think however I get where you're coming from - you're wondering
whether you should be touching-in when you alight from your Shenfield
line suburban train whereupon you are immediately presented with
Oyster validators on the island platform that is shared with the
Central Line. I must admit I have never tested out this scenario but
I'm almost certain that touching-in here and then again at either the
Jubilee line gates or the DLR or NLL validators wouldn't be a problem
at all (I suppose it's possible the validators at the entrance to the
DLR might present an error message given that you had touched-in
already, but as they are configured as interchange validators I reckon
that wouldn't happen).

Do bear in mind that on arrival at Stratford you don't need to
immediately 'legitimise' youself by touching-in - you are already
legit because you've got a paper rail ticket.


In other words one does not have to use the interchange validators
whatsoever if one is merely interchanging there as part of an overall
PAYG journey, but nothing bad happens if one does.

Ah. I'm also thinking of exiting the station - as well as the double
barriers to get out of the Jubilee line there are also platform readers with
signs that imply that all PAYG (or any Oyster) users must touch on them.


Again I reckon there wouldn't be a problem even if you exited the
Jubilee gates, went round the station and touched on the NLL, DLR and
Central line validators and then left the station through the main
gates - you'd be bonkers to do so but I doubt it'd be an issue for
Oyster. In fact I'll do just that sometime and see what happens!


(It's worth noting that these interchange validators - i.e. within
gated stations - are set up differently from those in use elsewhere at
ungated stations on the DLR and indeed at a number of LU, LO and
National Rail stations - the latter are set up as entry & exit
validators, and once you've touched on these the system will regard
your journey as either having started or finished.)

So do they allow one to actually finish a PAYG journey? Supposing one is
travelling from Bow Church to Forest Gate, starting on Oyster but switching
over to a paper ticket for the last stretch of the journey - will a platform
reader end the Oyster section?


Yes it will. I'll stop pussyfooting around so much and expand on this.
I don't know the official terminology but touching on interchange
validators is in effect treated as a 'soft exit' from the PAYG system
- in other words it means that the passenger might be doing one of two
things, either
(a) finishing their PAYG journey and presumably continuing using
another paper ticket, or
(b) touching-in midway through their journey at the point of
interchange, and they will touch out later when they exit the system
at their destination.

In other words it is ambiguous, because the system cannot know what a
passenger intends to do. In any case if a passenger is inspected later
then their Oyster card will be legitimately validated (within the time
limit at least).

I'm not going to spell it out, but you can see how this could be
abused by someone who wanted to sidestep paying the whole fare due.


And for that matter do the Jubilee barriers work to both interchange Canning
Town to Leyton and finish the Oyster section of Canning Town to non-Oyster,
or does the latter require touching out on the platform barriers as well?


Again the unusual Jubilee line gates have the exact same 'interchange'
attributes as the interchange validators, because a passenger might
fall into either scenario (a) or scenario (b) which I outlined above.


Many (inc. Paul C) have said that better information should be
provided - I suspect the basic problem with providing this information
is that it might assist people in working out the potential loopholes
that are inherent with interchange validators, something I've hinted
at in the past though I note one contributor to this ng recently laid
it out in a straightforward manner. In other words spelling out
exactly how they work will assist people to abuse the system.

So instead it encourages people to get confused and make mistakes because
they don't know and can't find out how to do it correctly?


I suppose the point is that they can't make a mistake even if they are
'Oyster touch-happy' - i.e. the system is tolerant of people touching-
in several times. My hypothesis is that the way the system works is
not explained for fear that people will figure out how to scam it. As
more ungated National Rail stations enter the fray as more routes
accept PAYG, this issue only increases.

On Dec 13, 9:07*pm, Mizter T wrote:

[much cut]

Yes it will. I'll stop pussyfooting around so much and expand on this.
I don't know the official terminology but touching on interchange
validators is in effect treated as a 'soft exit' from the PAYG system
- in other words it means that the passenger might be doing one of two
things, either
(a) finishing their PAYG journey and presumably continuing using
another paper ticket, or
(b) touching-in midway through their journey at the point of
interchange, and they will touch out later when they exit the system
at their destination.

In other words it is ambiguous, because the system cannot know what a
passenger intends to do. In any case if a passenger is inspected later
then their Oyster card will be legitimately validated (within the time
limit at least).

I'm not going to spell it out, but you can see how this could be
abused by someone who wanted to sidestep paying the whole fare due.



And for that matter do the Jubilee barriers work to both interchange Canning
Town to Leyton and finish the Oyster section of Canning Town to non-Oyster,
or does the latter require touching out on the platform barriers as well?

Again the unusual Jubilee line gates have the exact same 'interchange'
attributes as the interchange validators, because a passenger might
fall into either scenario (a) or scenario (b) which I outlined above.



Many (inc. Paul C) have said that better information should be
provided - I suspect the basic problem with providing this information
is that it might assist people in working out the potential loopholes
that are inherent with interchange validators, something I've hinted
at in the past though I note one contributor to this ng recently laid
it out in a straightforward manner. In other words spelling out
exactly how they work will assist people to abuse the system.

So instead it encourages people to get confused and make mistakes because
they don't know and can't find out how to do it correctly?

I suppose the point is that they can't make a mistake even if they are
'Oyster touch-happy' - i.e. the system is tolerant of people touching-
in several times. My hypothesis is that the way the system works is
not explained for fear that people will figure out how to scam it. As
more ungated National Rail stations enter the fray as more routes
accept PAYG, this issue only increases.

Not that I plan to try, but does that mean that if I was to get on the
DLR at, say, Greenwich and touch the pad there to start the journey,
and then keep jumping out and touching at various stations along the
way and then eventually exit through the barriers at Bank, would I be
charged for just the one journey or have a string or unresolved
journeys?

But I am not clear on whether there is a distinction between
"interchange" validators and other standalone validators (ie all along
the DLR) which are neither entry nor exit.

Maybe if I restricted my touches to Greenwich, Heron Quays and Canary
Wharf and then ended the journey at Bank it would be different from
touching at Mudchute etc.

On 14 Dec, 12:19, MIG wrote:
But I am not clear on whether there is a distinction between
"interchange" validators and other standalone validators (ie all along
the DLR) which are neither entry nor exit.

There's a logical distinction between validators that are physically
located between two PAYG routes (eg at Stratford), and validators that
aren't (eg at non-OSI DLR stations), as for the latter it can be
safely assumed you're touching out because you've finished you're
journey. That said, I can't see a pressing need to make this
assumption, so it may be that the latter act exactly like the former.
You'd have to do your experiment to find out.

U

On Dec 13, 4:47*pm, Mizter T wrote:
On 13 Dec, 15:58, "Tim Roll-Pickering"
wrote:

Mizter T wrote:
By security I take it you mean fare checking (or 'revenue inspection'
- but I dislike that phrase because I think it's very narrow) - not
quite the same thing in my mind but of course they overlap.
Interesting thought - I hadn't considered the difference six car
trains (or three car - depending on how you look at it!) might make to
checking tickets. Most DLR stations simply ain't set up to accomodate
tickets gates, so I dare say that if there is deemed to be an issue
then teams of roving inspectors would fit the bill - I don't think
I've ever come across such a thing on a DLR train actually, though I
have seen ticket checking teams at stations a few times.

I have a few times on the Stratford branch. Perhaps that's also because
Stratford is a nightmare for knowing how to use Oyster correctly when
interchanging (especially from tickets).

IME there isn't really an issue here - at least there isn't a
technical issue, the issue is with regards to people getting
unneccesarily worried about it which is understandable as there isn't
any guidance.

Touching on Oyster interchange validators at Stratford or similar
locations isn't necessary if one is using PAYG from point A (e.g.
Pudding Mill Lane on the DLR) to point B (e.g. Leyton on the Central
line) as one touches-in and out at the start/end of that journey.
However if one does touch on an interchange validator it doesn't
matter - all that happens is that the journey would then be extended
from Stratford to Leyton when one touched-out at the latter.

In other words one does not have to use the interchange validators
whatsoever if one is merely interchanging there as part of an overall
PAYG journey, but nothing bad happens if one does.

(It's worth noting that these interchange validators - i.e. within
gated stations - are set up differently from those in use elsewhere at
ungated stations on the DLR and indeed at a number of LU, LO and
National Rail stations - the latter are set up as entry & exit
validators, and once you've touched on these the system will regard
your journey as either having started or finished.)

Many (inc. Paul C) have said that better information should be
provided - I suspect the basic problem with providing this information
is that it might assist people in working out the potential loopholes
that are inherent with interchange validators, something I've hinted
at in the past though I note one contributor to this ng recently laid
it out in a straightforward manner. In other words spelling out
exactly how they work will assist people to abuse the system.

Much as I admire your knowledgeable and good-tempered contributions,
that has got to be the most ridiculous thing I've ever read.

Keeping the rules a secret in order to increase compliance with the
rules? I hardly think so, although it might catch more people out, if
that's the intention.

On 13 Dec, 18:44, MIG wrote:

On Dec 13, 4:47*pm, Mizter T wrote:

On 13 Dec, 15:58, "Tim Roll-Pickering"
wrote:

Mizter T wrote:
By security I take it you mean fare checking (or 'revenue inspection'
- but I dislike that phrase because I think it's very narrow) - not
quite the same thing in my mind but of course they overlap.
Interesting thought - I hadn't considered the difference six car
trains (or three car - depending on how you look at it!) might make to
checking tickets. Most DLR stations simply ain't set up to accomodate
tickets gates, so I dare say that if there is deemed to be an issue
then teams of roving inspectors would fit the bill - I don't think
I've ever come across such a thing on a DLR train actually, though I
have seen ticket checking teams at stations a few times.

I have a few times on the Stratford branch. Perhaps that's also because
Stratford is a nightmare for knowing how to use Oyster correctly when
interchanging (especially from tickets).

IME there isn't really an issue here - at least there isn't a
technical issue, the issue is with regards to people getting
unneccesarily worried about it which is understandable as there isn't
any guidance.

Touching on Oyster interchange validators at Stratford or similar
locations isn't necessary if one is using PAYG from point A (e.g.
Pudding Mill Lane on the DLR) to point B (e.g. Leyton on the Central
line) as one touches-in and out at the start/end of that journey.
However if one does touch on an interchange validator it doesn't
matter - all that happens is that the journey would then be extended
from Stratford to Leyton when one touched-out at the latter.

In other words one does not have to use the interchange validators
whatsoever if one is merely interchanging there as part of an overall
PAYG journey, but nothing bad happens if one does.

(It's worth noting that these interchange validators - i.e. within
gated stations - are set up differently from those in use elsewhere at
ungated stations on the DLR and indeed at a number of LU, LO and
National Rail stations - the latter are set up as entry & exit
validators, and once you've touched on these the system will regard
your journey as either having started or finished.)

Many (inc. Paul C) have said that better information should be
provided - I suspect the basic problem with providing this information
is that it might assist people in working out the potential loopholes
that are inherent with interchange validators, something I've hinted
at in the past though I note one contributor to this ng recently laid
it out in a straightforward manner. In other words spelling out
exactly how they work will assist people to abuse the system.

Much as I admire your knowledgeable and good-tempered contributions,
that has got to be the most ridiculous thing I've ever read.

Keeping the rules a secret in order to increase compliance with the
rules? *I hardly think so, although it might catch more people out, if
that's the intention.


Ha! Put like that it does sound nonsensical, but that's not quite what
I was getting at - allow me to elaborate...

If you take a look at my extensive reply to Tim on this overall issue
upthread, you'll find that I expand on this. Do note that I don't work
for TfL or anyone else involved - all I was doing was hypothesising on
reasons why TfL might not provide specific guidance for such
scenarios, which in essence boils down to...
(a) the fact that it's not possible to muck it up - a passenger can
touch on as many interchange validators as they want without it
causing an issue, and
(b) the possibility that publicly laying out exactly how the system is
configured will make it easier for people to figure out how to 'work
the system'.

In other words there aren't really any complicated rules, all one is
basically required to is to least touche-in or out at the start or end
of one's PAYG journey - at a gated interchange point like this a
passenger changing lines can touch-in at as many interchange
validators as they want and it won't make a blind bit of difference.

That said I'll certainly grant you that official guidance is a bit
vague at best when it comes to the issue of combining a Travelcard on
Oyster with PAYG to extend the journey 'out-of-zone' - though
passengers using this facility would indeed do well to touch-in on any
interchange validators they might come across on their journey.

However when PAYG becomes widespread on National Rail there could well
be an issue is passengers are changing trains at an ungated station
and decide to go to the station exit to touch-in on a standalone
validator - if that validator has been configured merely to deal with
entrances and exits then people trying to use it as an interchange
validator will mess things up on their card (and yes I do realise that
in such a scenario said passengers would only be doing what they
thought was best). There are two solutions to this...
(a) gate the station, and
(b) configure any validators at such stations as interchange
validators, just to be on the safe side.

I dare say that many stations used where this might occur (i.e. those
commonly used for interchange between lines and services) are either
already gated or will be gated soon.

Anyway I suspect you'll still think I'm a fruitcake regardless!

On Sat, 13 Dec 2008, MIG wrote:

On Dec 13, 4:47*pm, Mizter T wrote:

Many (inc. Paul C) have said that better information should be provided
- I suspect the basic problem with providing this information is that
it might assist people in working out the potential loopholes that are
inherent with interchange validators, something I've hinted at in the
past though I note one contributor to this ng recently laid it out in a
straightforward manner. In other words spelling out exactly how they
work will assist people to abuse the system.

Much as I admire your knowledgeable and good-tempered contributions,
that has got to be the most ridiculous thing I've ever read.

Keeping the rules a secret in order to increase compliance with the
rules?

Mizter T is a former home secretary, AICMFP.

tom

--
For me, thats just logic. OTOH, Spock went bananas several times using
logic. -- Pete, mfw