On Dec 14, 5:39*pm, Theo Markettos
wrote:
In uk.railway Andy wrote:

I seem to recall seeing somewhere that one of the ideas is the virtual
carnet. Buy 10 tickets for a journey, taken at irregular intevals, but
only pay for 8. This is something that should be relatively simple to
setup with smartcard ticketing.

It would make sense to provide metro-area ticket across modes. *So you'd buy
a DayRider which would be valid on local buses, and on trains (journeys like
Southampton Central to Redbridge). *If you ended up at Poole on a train or
Andover on a bus you've gone too far and aren't travelling with a valid
ticket. *Just like you can travelcard to Watford Junction but not Milton
Keynes.

Though presumably to avoid massive abuse this would have to be
accompanied with a 'touch in and touch out' policy on buses and other
modes, which could be tricky with the one-door, tickets from the
driver approach adopted to bus operation in most areas other than
London.

Surely it's a tentative (and arguably over-optimistic) step towards
what the Netherlands has - a national smart card which is valid for
local transport anywhere in the country, or (at least) in the South
East, but which won't make any real sense until lots of operators and
areas are supporting it. Even without 'PAYG' train ticketing, you
could still have some form of capping, whereby the (electronically
deducted) bus journeys at either end of a Cambridge city centre -
Southampton town centre journey were effectively 'refunded' when the
train ticket was added to the smartcard.

On 16 Dec, 16:16, Rupert Candy wrote:
On Dec 14, 5:39*pm, Theo Markettos
wrote:

In uk.railway Andy wrote:

I seem to recall seeing somewhere that one of the ideas is the virtual
carnet. Buy 10 tickets for a journey, taken at irregular intevals, but
only pay for 8. This is something that should be relatively simple to
setup with smartcard ticketing.

It would make sense to provide metro-area ticket across modes. *So you'd buy
a DayRider which would be valid on local buses, and on trains (journeys like
Southampton Central to Redbridge). *If you ended up at Poole on a train or
Andover on a bus you've gone too far and aren't travelling with a valid
ticket. *Just like you can travelcard to Watford Junction but not Milton
Keynes.

Though presumably to avoid massive abuse this would have to be
accompanied with a 'touch in and touch out' policy on buses and other
modes, which could be tricky with the one-door, tickets from the
driver approach adopted to bus operation in most areas other than
London.

Surely it's a tentative (and arguably over-optimistic) step towards
what the Netherlands has - a national smart card which is valid for
local transport anywhere in the country, or (at least) in the South
East, but which won't make any real sense until lots of operators and
areas are supporting it. Even without 'PAYG' train ticketing, you
could still have some form of capping, whereby the (electronically
deducted) bus journeys at either end of a Cambridge city centre -
Southampton town centre journey were effectively 'refunded' when the
train ticket was added to the smartcard.

The Solent council's report on smartcard opportunities is at

http://www.portsmouth.gov.uk/media/S...ortunities.pdf

The main points a

lack of incentive for bus operators to invest

possibiliy of validity on ferries

PAYG with capping style functionality is possible in the Solent
Travelcard area

In message
Matthew Dickinson wrote:

[snip]

The Solent council's report on smartcard opportunities is at

Solent council???????


http://www.portsmouth.gov.uk/media/S...ortunities.pdf

Pompey getting uppity again? Just 'cos they've got a premiership team they
think they own the Solent :-)


The main points a

lack of incentive for bus operators to invest


possibiliy of validity on ferries

That could be handy.


--
Graeme Wall
This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
Transport Miscellany at http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html

"Graeme Wall" wrote in message
...
In message

Matthew Dickinson wrote:

[snip]

The Solent council's report on smartcard opportunities is at

Solent council???????
http://www.portsmouth.gov.uk/media/S...ortunities.pdf

Pompey getting uppity again? Just 'cos they've got a premiership team
they
think they own the Solent :-)

The main points a

lack of incentive for bus operators to invest

possibiliy of validity on ferries

That could be handy.

Noticed today the reader/validators are fitted all the way down the Netley
line. As none of the stations have ticket barriers, and by my logic stand
alone 'readers' are not needed for season tickets, they must have some sort
of local scheme designed, otherwise why bother with all the hardware?

There are also foundations and conduit in at Southampton Central for stand
alone readers on the 'paid side' of the barriers. That points to use by pax
who've arrived at the station from elsewhere on normal tickets, by
comparison with say Wimbledon.

[Presume Solent council should have been 'Solent Transport'. No, I hadn't
heard of it either...]

Paul S

On 16 Dec, 18:24, "Paul Scott" wrote:

(snip)

Noticed today the reader/validators are fitted all the way down the Netley
line. As none of the stations have ticket barriers, and by my logic stand
alone 'readers' are not needed for season tickets, they must have some sort
of local scheme designed, otherwise why bother with all the hardware?

The plot thickens...


There are also foundations and conduit in at Southampton Central for stand
alone readers on the 'paid side' of the barriers. That points to use by pax
who've arrived at the station from elsewhere on normal tickets, by
comparison with say Wimbledon.

And Ealing Broadway, Stratford, Richmond, Barking, Harrow &
Wealdstone, Seven Sisters etc etc etc.

In message
"Paul Scott" wrote:


"Graeme Wall" wrote in message
...
In message

Matthew Dickinson wrote:

[snip]

The Solent council's report on smartcard opportunities is at

Solent council???????
http://www.portsmouth.gov.uk/media/S...ortunities.pdf

Pompey getting uppity again? Just 'cos they've got a premiership team
they think they own the Solent :-)

The main points a

lack of incentive for bus operators to invest

possibiliy of validity on ferries

That could be handy.

Noticed today the reader/validators are fitted all the way down the Netley
line.

That's recent, they weren't there in September.

As none of the stations have ticket barriers, and by my logic stand alone
'readers' are not needed for season tickets, they must have some sort of
local scheme designed, otherwise why bother with all the hardware?

Some of the stations have only just got conventional ticket machines (which
weren't working when I tried to use them).


There are also foundations and conduit in at Southampton Central for stand
alone readers on the 'paid side' of the barriers. That points to use by pax
who've arrived at the station from elsewhere on normal tickets, by
comparison with say Wimbledon.

There appears to be some major refurbishment work going on on the upside of
Southampton Central.


[Presume Solent council should have been 'Solent Transport'. No, I hadn't
heard of it either...]


Hope its nothing to do with Solent 'University' (sic)

--
Graeme Wall
This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
Transport Miscellany at http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html

Rupert Candy wrote:


Surely it's a tentative (and arguably over-optimistic) step towards
what the Netherlands has - a national smart card which is valid for
local transport anywhere in the country,

Is it not more a case of "what the Netherlands might have one day, if
they can get it to work, if Connexxion brings its ball back, if they
(=the colonial imperialist aggressors) can install ticket gates or
similar everywhere they will be needed, and if students don't make their
own knock-offs"?



or (at least) in the South
East, but which won't make any real sense until lots of operators and
areas are supporting it. Even without 'PAYG' train ticketing, you
could still have some form of capping, whereby the (electronically
deducted) bus journeys at either end of a Cambridge city centre -
Southampton town centre journey were effectively 'refunded' when the
train ticket was added to the smartcard.


--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

On 16 Dec, 18:26, Arthur Figgis wrote:

Rupert Candy wrote:
Surely it's a tentative (and arguably over-optimistic) step towards
what the Netherlands has - a national smart card which is valid for
local transport anywhere in the country,

Is it not more a case of "what the Netherlands might have one day, if
they can get it to work, if Connexxion brings its ball back, if they
(=the colonial imperialist aggressors) can install ticket gates or
similar everywhere they will be needed, and if students don't make their
own knock-offs"?


I've similarly heard rumblings about the trouble that's being
experienced.

I have absolutely no idea how the Dutch system works, as I haven't
been there for a while - is there a 'touch-in/ touch-out' pay-as-you-
go system? If so what happens about unresolved journeys? And is it
also based on the MiFare Classic technology?

On Dec 16, 6:54*pm, Mizter T wrote:
On 16 Dec, 18:26, Arthur Figgis wrote:

Rupert Candy wrote:
Surely it's a tentative (and arguably over-optimistic) step towards
what the Netherlands has - a national smart card which is valid for
local transport anywhere in the country,

Is it not more a case of "what the Netherlands might have one day, if
they can get it to work, if Connexxion brings its ball back, if they
(=the colonial imperialist aggressors) can install ticket gates or
similar everywhere they will be needed, and if students don't make their
own knock-offs"?

I've similarly heard rumblings about the trouble that's being
experienced.

I have absolutely no idea how the Dutch system works, as I haven't
been there for a while - is there a 'touch-in/ touch-out' pay-as-you-
go system? If so what happens about unresolved journeys? And is it
also based on the MiFare Classic technology?

I know very little about the technicalities, but like Oyster, the
cards can hold both season tickets and stored value, and there is a
'touch in and touch out' regime on all modes of transport (including
bus and tram - validators on either side of each set of doors).
Interestingly, if you don't want to store long-term season tickets,
you can opt for an 'anonymous' version of the card which just holds
stored value and is completely transferable - I suppose the equivalent
of an unregistered Oyster, but presented as an explicit choice.

One thing that threw me back in October (when the Metro-only trial was
still running) was the lack of signs on the card vending machines at
stations. The only way I discovered my mistake was when I tried to
touch in on a tram. I got a green light, but the 'guard' in the little
booth wasn't having any of it...

http://www.ov-chipkaart.nl/hoe/ has lots of information if anyone's
interested (English version available, natuurlijk)

On 16 Dec, 21:33, Rupert Candy wrote:

On Dec 16, 6:54*pm, Mizter T wrote:

(snip)

I have absolutely no idea how the Dutch system works, as I haven't
been there for a while - is there a 'touch-in/ touch-out' pay-as-you-
go system? If so what happens about unresolved journeys? And is it
also based on the MiFare Classic technology?

I know very little about the technicalities, but like Oyster, the
cards can hold both season tickets and stored value, and there is a
'touch in and touch out' regime on all modes of transport (including
bus and tram - validators on either side of each set of doors).
Interestingly, if you don't want to store long-term season tickets,
you can opt for an 'anonymous' version of the card which just holds
stored value and is completely transferable - I suppose the equivalent
of an unregistered Oyster, but presented as an explicit choice.

Thanks for the info. Interesting to note the touch-in and touch-out
requirement on buses and trams - we had an interesting discussion
about that back in January on utl, with a great and very comprehensive
contribution from Paul Corfield who was right in the middle of the
development of Oyster (the thread title is "Oyster PAYG and
differential bus fares" should anyone wish to goggle).

Regarding unregistered Oyster cards - there has been some more recent
TfL publicity for Oyster (including posters) that have specifically
mentioned the fact that "You don't need to register" in order to get a
card. I dare say this has been in response to market research which
flagged registration up as an issue with some people. Also it's not
just PAYG that's available on unregistered Oyster cards - weekly
Travelcards and bus passes are possible too.


One thing that threw me back in October (when the Metro-only trial was
still running) was the lack of signs on the card vending machines at
stations. The only way I discovered my mistake was when I tried to
touch in on a tram. I got a green light, but the 'guard' in the little
booth wasn't having any of it...

Ha! I seem to recall stories of the early days of Oyster PAYG when it
was only officially available for use on the Underground, where people
tried it anyway on buses that had readers and were charged fares of 1p
or some such!


http://www.ov-chipkaart.nl/hoe/has lots of information if anyone's
interested (English version available, natuurlijk)


Thanks, I'll take a look into that.