On 18 Dec, 16:26, "John Rowland"
wrote:
Theo Markettos wrote:
In uk.transport.london Robert wrote:
I cannot for the life of me see what the advantages are, for the
customer, of an electronic form of payment over cash for small
amounts.

Cash is well developed, the bugs have been ironed out of it and it's
easy to see your current balance.

Being cynical, I think you'll find that's a misfeature. *Plastic has
the 'advantage' (for the retailer) that the customer cannot easily
see their balance and is tempted to spend more. *Hence the reason why
cash is on the rise again, as people are trying to keep more control
over their finances.

I find that only buying stuff I need works for me.

I find that getting money out the bank (either cash or debit) is the
psychologically big step. Once the cash is in my pocket it's already
out of the bank and effectively gone.

On 18 Dec, 16:52, Robert wrote:

On 2008-12-18 13:27:27 +0000, Mizter T said:

On 18 Dec, 11:11, Robert wrote:

(much snipping)

This could be adopted for all sorts of other transactions. even
ruggedised to work on buses. The buses in Munich are fitted with coin
operated ticket issuing machines and I have never yet found one that
hasn't worked.

Do they issue change?

I don't know if all of them do. The buses on my local route were run by
a bus company on the edge of Munich which took part in the transport
co-operative, but ran routes further out into the country. These
machines did give change, as long as the 'change' side of the machine
had any money in it. If not then it defaulted to exact fare only. In
the centre the machines on buses run by the MVG (the city run bus, tram
and U-bahn organisation) looked to be slightly different. I never used
one as I had my inner-city season ticket for such journeys so I don't
know if they gave change. The next time I go there I'll have a look.


Thanks for the details. Despite taking an interest in matters
transportational, I invariably manage to miss or look straight through
loads of such things when when I'm visiting somewhere else.


I am not familiar with this 'Oyster' thing, so I have no experience of
the reduced dwell times. If dwell times do cause a significant cost,
then the dwell time can be reduced to zero (i.e., excess time above
that required for getting on and off) by bringing back the conductor.....

Oyster has basically been revolutionary on London's buses. Dwell times
have been greatly reduced, as hardly anyone pays cash on board any
more - I'm serious, it is very rare to find people actually buying a
ticket from the driver (and when they do it's quick as there's a flat
cash fare of £2). Reduced dwell times means faster and more reliable
journeys, leading to a more reliable service that is far more
attractive to passengers - in essence buses are faster and more
frequent.
Snipped
It's a great system, and really does make a difference to bus travel.

Regarding conductors - it is simply very expensive to put conductors
on buses, and where smartcard ticketing exists it would be an
unjustifiable luxury.

Thank you for the explanation - I didn't realise that it was a flat
fare system.

Flat fares on buses, yes (not on the Tube, as I mentioned). Other
smartcard systems elsewhere in the world work do however work on a tap-
in and tap-out policy, which means that the fares don't have to be
flat. This could I suppose be implemented in London but it would be a
hassle after everyone having got used to flat-fares - the alternative
of having to tell the driver what fare you want before having your
card validated as appropriate would be a massively retrograde step and
recreate a situation similar to the slow pay-as-you-board days of old.
These days people just touch-in on the machine next to the driver as
they board - all the driver needs to do is verify that everyone is
doing just that. (And on bendy buses passengers can board by any door
as there are Oyster scanners next to all three - roving teams of
inspectors travel on bendy buses doing random ticket checks.)

One thing I didn't mention is the daily capping system. On buses this
is simple - each journey costs 90p, but the cost of travelling by bus
in any one day (i.e. 0430 to 0429) is capped at £3 - so in other words
your fourth bus journey will cost you 30p, and your fifth and any
beyond that are 'free'. This capping system also applies to using the
Tube - and indeed the Tube *and* buses - but it does get rather more
complicated as both the time of travel and in the case of the Tube the
zones travelled through all affect the price cap that gets applied.
That said, so long as you always touch-in and touch-out on the Tube
(and the few rail services that accept Oyster pay-as-you-go) then the
cheapest daily price cap will be applied automatically.

On Wed, 17 Dec 2008 03:43:57 -0800 (PST), Matthew Dickinson
wrote:


This card is also being adopted by GMPTE for their smartcard.

I'll believe that when I see it...

On 2008-12-18 19:38:17 +0000, Mizter T said:


On 18 Dec, 16:52, Robert wrote:

On 2008-12-18 13:27:27 +0000, Mizter T said:

On 18 Dec, 11:11, Robert wrote:

(much snipping)

This could be adopted for all sorts of other transactions. even
ruggedised to work on buses. The buses in Munich are fitted with coin
operated ticket issuing machines and I have never yet found one that
hasn't worked.

Do they issue change?

I don't know if all of them do. The buses on my local route were run by
a bus company on the edge of Munich which took part in the transport
co-operative, but ran routes further out into the country. These
machines did give change, as long as the 'change' side of the machine
had any money in it. If not then it defaulted to exact fare only. In
the centre the machines on buses run by the MVG (the city run bus, tram
and U-bahn organisation) looked to be slightly different. I never used
one as I had my inner-city season ticket for such journeys so I don't
know if they gave change. The next time I go there I'll have a look.


Thanks for the details. Despite taking an interest in matters
transportational, I invariably manage to miss or look straight through
loads of such things when when I'm visiting somewhere else.


I am not familiar with this 'Oyster' thing, so I have no experience of
the reduced dwell times. If dwell times do cause a significant cost,
then the dwell time can be reduced to zero (i.e., excess time above
that required for getting on and off) by bringing back the conductor..
..

Oyster has basically been revolutionary on London's buses. Dwell times
have been greatly reduced, as hardly anyone pays cash on board any
more - I'm serious, it is very rare to find people actually buying a
ticket from the driver (and when they do it's quick as there's a flat
cash fare of £2). Reduced dwell times means faster and more reliable
journeys, leading to a more reliable service that is far more
attractive to passengers - in essence buses are faster and more
frequent.
Snipped
It's a great system, and really does make a difference to bus travel.

Regarding conductors - it is simply very expensive to put conductors
on buses, and where smartcard ticketing exists it would be an
unjustifiable luxury.

Thank you for the explanation - I didn't realise that it was a flat
fare system.

Flat fares on buses, yes (not on the Tube, as I mentioned). Other
smartcard systems elsewhere in the world work do however work on a tap-
in and tap-out policy, which means that the fares don't have to be
flat. This could I suppose be implemented in London but it would be a
hassle after everyone having got used to flat-fares - the alternative
of having to tell the driver what fare you want before having your
card validated as appropriate would be a massively retrograde step and
recreate a situation similar to the slow pay-as-you-board days of old.
These days people just touch-in on the machine next to the driver as
they board - all the driver needs to do is verify that everyone is
doing just that. (And on bendy buses passengers can board by any door
as there are Oyster scanners next to all three - roving teams of
inspectors travel on bendy buses doing random ticket checks.)

One thing I didn't mention is the daily capping system. On buses this
is simple - each journey costs 90p, but the cost of travelling by bus
in any one day (i.e. 0430 to 0429) is capped at £3 - so in other words
your fourth bus journey will cost you 30p, and your fifth and any
beyond that are 'free'. This capping system also applies to using the
Tube - and indeed the Tube *and* buses - but it does get rather more
complicated as both the time of travel and in the case of the Tube the
zones travelled through all affect the price cap that gets applied.
That said, so long as you always touch-in and touch-out on the Tube
(and the few rail services that accept Oyster pay-as-you-go) then the
cheapest daily price cap will be applied automatically.

Thank you again. Whenever I go to London I use a One Day Travelcard and
just feed it through the slots in the gates. As a result I have never
bothered to find out how Oyster works.
--
Robert

I cannot for the life of me see what the advantages are, for the
customer, of an electronic form of payment over cash for small amounts.

Whenever I'm in Tokyo I sling twenty quid on my Suica card, even if
I'm not going to be travelling much. It's far easier to pay for odds
and ends with a few seconds' waving of a card, rather than fiddling
with cash --- which either means counting out the right amount, or
waiting for change --- and it also has a major advantage for anyone
travelling on business that you can extract a report from a machine
and use it for your expenses claim. (Before anyone says it, yes, it's
in Japanese, but because I work for a Japanese company the guy that
signs overseas expenses claims is himself Japanese). The scheme has
rolled out over the whole station ecosystem, so you can buy breakfast
in those strange almost but not quite european bakeries, a bento for
lunch and a coffee on your way back in the evening. I presume it has
an upper limit: I've never tried buying anything substantial.

ian

One thing I omitted to mention in my reply to Robert is that in
central London there is now a 'pay-before-you-board' regime for buses
- actually this is something of a misnomer considering that these days
most people already have pre-paid tickets, but for those that don't
they need to buy a ticket (or a one-day bus pass) from the roadside
ticket machine at the bus stop.

Indeed. And London is now usable for ad hoc bus journeys: you can get
on a bus headed in roughly the right direction, slap your Oyster or
wave your day Travelcard, and then look out the window for either
where you're going or an alarming turn off the obvious route.
Contrast the shambles that is Birmingham, where the system is
essentially unusable even for residents: I've used more buses recently
in each of London, New York, Tokyo, all blessed with various pre-pay
systems, than I have in my own city.

ian

It would be ideal for buses, and if change was only issued because the
machine determined it should be, and not on demand from the driver, it
would offer the security of a farebox system yet the flexibility of
the driver giving change.

I have a memory of that system being used on Exeter buses in the
1970s, but I could be completely wrong.

ian

Thank you again. Whenever I go to London I use a One Day Travelcard

Get an Oyster. If you happen to make fewer journeys than the price of
a ODT, you save. If you make more, it's capped anyway. It spares you
having to decide in advance which zones you want, and you don't need
to queue to get it.

The things where a travelcard is bundled into a day return (which
Chiltern have done for a while, but Virgin now seem to do as well) are
marginal: they're six zone, which is good if you're going to use it
but less good value if you aren't. And I'm never entirely sure
(perhaps someone could comment) on if they include buses.

ian

In article
,
wrote:

The things where a travelcard is bundled into a day return (which
Chiltern have done for a while, but Virgin now seem to do as well) are
marginal: they're six zone, which is good if you're going to use it
but less good value if you aren't. And I'm never entirely sure
(perhaps someone could comment) on if they include buses.

Yes they do.

On 2008-12-19 01:44:21 +0000, said:


Thank you again. Whenever I go to London I use a One Day Travelcard

Get an Oyster. If you happen to make fewer journeys than the price of
a ODT, you save. If you make more, it's capped anyway. It spares you
having to decide in advance which zones you want, and you don't need
to queue to get it.

The things where a travelcard is bundled into a day return (which
Chiltern have done for a while, but Virgin now seem to do as well) are
marginal: they're six zone, which is good if you're going to use it
but less good value if you aren't. And I'm never entirely sure
(perhaps someone could comment) on if they include buses.

ian

Sorry, I didn't make it clear that I normally travel to London from
Reading, so the train journey is included in the Travelcard. Using my
'old wrinkly' Railcard it costs GBP 12.50 at the moment. As much London
as I can digest in a day!

The best bit, though, is gazing at Brunel's roof....
--
Robert