On 2008-12-18 13:27:27 +0000, Mizter T said:


On 18 Dec, 11:11, Robert wrote:

On 2008-12-18 10:13:36 +0000, Peter Campbell Smith
said:

Robert wrote in news:2008121807091316807-
coppercapped@googlemailcom:

The technology is a solution looking for a problem. Somebody, somewher
e
is trying to skim a few percent off small everyday transactions. Why
else would they be pushing the idea? Why increase the costs of small
transactions and complicate something that is very simple - and above
all, works?

I don't disagree with what you say, but there are some other reasons.
One
is the cost of handling cash, especially when it has to be collected fr
om
otherwise unmanned places like vending machines. The other is security
and
audit; for example vending machines are frequently stolen or broken int
o
and the cost of repair or replacement usually greatly exceeds the value
of
the money inside.

I assume the machines have to be visited to be re-stocked. Then remove
the money at the same time. It is not necessary to make two visits.

If they are so often stolen or broken into then they can't be very
profitable because of all the extra costs. Remove them.

The argument is that they wouldn't be broken in to (or at least not
nearly as often) if they didn't contain cash. I think that's a pretty
strong argument, to be honest.

Plus with a number of such vending/self-service machines is it not the
case that sometimes the restocking and the cash emptying are carried
out separately? I'm not enough of an observer of such matters to know
that much about them. With some, such as car parking payment machines,
the predominant issue will be emptying them of cash as opposed to
restocking them - especially in the case of multi-storey car park
payment machines (though I suppose these may issue a receipt, so that
roll needs would need to be restocked - they'll certainly need to if
payment is made via credit/debit card).


Coin, and especially note, accepting equipment is expensive and much le
ss
reliable and prone to vandalism than RFID interfaces.

Agreed.


Much the point I was making above.


Even at a manned position, RFID transactions are faster than cash, so t
hat
at a busy place fewer counter staff are required, or queues can be hand
led
faster (as can be seen by reduced dwell times on buses since the
introduction of Oyster).

I have seen supermarkets (on the continent I will admit) where the
change (in coin) was held in an automatic machine at the checkout. You
handed the check-out person your money, the amount was registered in
the till and the change was automatically delivered down a chute. Only
notes were handed out by hand. It was very quick.

This could be adopted for all sorts of other transactions. even
ruggedised to work on buses. The buses in Munich are fitted with coin
operated ticket issuing machines and I have never yet found one that
hasn't worked.

Do they issue change?

I don't know if all of them do. The buses on my local route were run by
a bus company on the edge of Munich which took part in the transport
co-operative, but ran routes further out into the country. These
machines did give change, as long as the 'change' side of the machine
had any money in it. If not then it defaulted to exact fare only. In
the centre the machines on buses run by the MVG (the city run bus, tram
and U-bahn organisation) looked to be slightly different. I never used
one as I had my inner-city season ticket for such journeys so I don't
know if they gave change. The next time I go there I'll have a look.



I am not familiar with this 'Oyster' thing, so I have no experience of
the reduced dwell times. If dwell times do cause a significant cost,
then the dwell time can be reduced to zero (i.e., excess time above
that required for getting on and off) by bringing back the conductor....


Oyster has basically been revolutionary on London's buses. Dwell times
have been greatly reduced, as hardly anyone pays cash on board any
more - I'm serious, it is very rare to find people actually buying a
ticket from the driver (and when they do it's quick as there's a flat
cash fare of £2). Reduced dwell times means faster and more reliable
journeys, leading to a more reliable service that is far more
attractive to passengers - in essence buses are faster and more
frequent.

Snipped

It's a great system, and really does make a difference to bus travel.

Regarding conductors - it is simply very expensive to put conductors
on buses, and where smartcard ticketing exists it would be an
unjustifiable luxury.

Thank you for the explanation - I didn't realise that it was a flat
fare system.
--
Robert

On 18 Dec, 16:52, Robert wrote:

On 2008-12-18 13:27:27 +0000, Mizter T said:

On 18 Dec, 11:11, Robert wrote:

(much snipping)

This could be adopted for all sorts of other transactions. even
ruggedised to work on buses. The buses in Munich are fitted with coin
operated ticket issuing machines and I have never yet found one that
hasn't worked.

Do they issue change?

I don't know if all of them do. The buses on my local route were run by
a bus company on the edge of Munich which took part in the transport
co-operative, but ran routes further out into the country. These
machines did give change, as long as the 'change' side of the machine
had any money in it. If not then it defaulted to exact fare only. In
the centre the machines on buses run by the MVG (the city run bus, tram
and U-bahn organisation) looked to be slightly different. I never used
one as I had my inner-city season ticket for such journeys so I don't
know if they gave change. The next time I go there I'll have a look.


Thanks for the details. Despite taking an interest in matters
transportational, I invariably manage to miss or look straight through
loads of such things when when I'm visiting somewhere else.


I am not familiar with this 'Oyster' thing, so I have no experience of
the reduced dwell times. If dwell times do cause a significant cost,
then the dwell time can be reduced to zero (i.e., excess time above
that required for getting on and off) by bringing back the conductor.....

Oyster has basically been revolutionary on London's buses. Dwell times
have been greatly reduced, as hardly anyone pays cash on board any
more - I'm serious, it is very rare to find people actually buying a
ticket from the driver (and when they do it's quick as there's a flat
cash fare of £2). Reduced dwell times means faster and more reliable
journeys, leading to a more reliable service that is far more
attractive to passengers - in essence buses are faster and more
frequent.
Snipped
It's a great system, and really does make a difference to bus travel.

Regarding conductors - it is simply very expensive to put conductors
on buses, and where smartcard ticketing exists it would be an
unjustifiable luxury.

Thank you for the explanation - I didn't realise that it was a flat
fare system.

Flat fares on buses, yes (not on the Tube, as I mentioned). Other
smartcard systems elsewhere in the world work do however work on a tap-
in and tap-out policy, which means that the fares don't have to be
flat. This could I suppose be implemented in London but it would be a
hassle after everyone having got used to flat-fares - the alternative
of having to tell the driver what fare you want before having your
card validated as appropriate would be a massively retrograde step and
recreate a situation similar to the slow pay-as-you-board days of old.
These days people just touch-in on the machine next to the driver as
they board - all the driver needs to do is verify that everyone is
doing just that. (And on bendy buses passengers can board by any door
as there are Oyster scanners next to all three - roving teams of
inspectors travel on bendy buses doing random ticket checks.)

One thing I didn't mention is the daily capping system. On buses this
is simple - each journey costs 90p, but the cost of travelling by bus
in any one day (i.e. 0430 to 0429) is capped at £3 - so in other words
your fourth bus journey will cost you 30p, and your fifth and any
beyond that are 'free'. This capping system also applies to using the
Tube - and indeed the Tube *and* buses - but it does get rather more
complicated as both the time of travel and in the case of the Tube the
zones travelled through all affect the price cap that gets applied.
That said, so long as you always touch-in and touch-out on the Tube
(and the few rail services that accept Oyster pay-as-you-go) then the
cheapest daily price cap will be applied automatically.

On 2008-12-18 19:38:17 +0000, Mizter T said:


On 18 Dec, 16:52, Robert wrote:

On 2008-12-18 13:27:27 +0000, Mizter T said:

On 18 Dec, 11:11, Robert wrote:

(much snipping)

This could be adopted for all sorts of other transactions. even
ruggedised to work on buses. The buses in Munich are fitted with coin
operated ticket issuing machines and I have never yet found one that
hasn't worked.

Do they issue change?

I don't know if all of them do. The buses on my local route were run by
a bus company on the edge of Munich which took part in the transport
co-operative, but ran routes further out into the country. These
machines did give change, as long as the 'change' side of the machine
had any money in it. If not then it defaulted to exact fare only. In
the centre the machines on buses run by the MVG (the city run bus, tram
and U-bahn organisation) looked to be slightly different. I never used
one as I had my inner-city season ticket for such journeys so I don't
know if they gave change. The next time I go there I'll have a look.


Thanks for the details. Despite taking an interest in matters
transportational, I invariably manage to miss or look straight through
loads of such things when when I'm visiting somewhere else.


I am not familiar with this 'Oyster' thing, so I have no experience of
the reduced dwell times. If dwell times do cause a significant cost,
then the dwell time can be reduced to zero (i.e., excess time above
that required for getting on and off) by bringing back the conductor..
..

Oyster has basically been revolutionary on London's buses. Dwell times
have been greatly reduced, as hardly anyone pays cash on board any
more - I'm serious, it is very rare to find people actually buying a
ticket from the driver (and when they do it's quick as there's a flat
cash fare of £2). Reduced dwell times means faster and more reliable
journeys, leading to a more reliable service that is far more
attractive to passengers - in essence buses are faster and more
frequent.
Snipped
It's a great system, and really does make a difference to bus travel.

Regarding conductors - it is simply very expensive to put conductors
on buses, and where smartcard ticketing exists it would be an
unjustifiable luxury.

Thank you for the explanation - I didn't realise that it was a flat
fare system.

Flat fares on buses, yes (not on the Tube, as I mentioned). Other
smartcard systems elsewhere in the world work do however work on a tap-
in and tap-out policy, which means that the fares don't have to be
flat. This could I suppose be implemented in London but it would be a
hassle after everyone having got used to flat-fares - the alternative
of having to tell the driver what fare you want before having your
card validated as appropriate would be a massively retrograde step and
recreate a situation similar to the slow pay-as-you-board days of old.
These days people just touch-in on the machine next to the driver as
they board - all the driver needs to do is verify that everyone is
doing just that. (And on bendy buses passengers can board by any door
as there are Oyster scanners next to all three - roving teams of
inspectors travel on bendy buses doing random ticket checks.)

One thing I didn't mention is the daily capping system. On buses this
is simple - each journey costs 90p, but the cost of travelling by bus
in any one day (i.e. 0430 to 0429) is capped at £3 - so in other words
your fourth bus journey will cost you 30p, and your fifth and any
beyond that are 'free'. This capping system also applies to using the
Tube - and indeed the Tube *and* buses - but it does get rather more
complicated as both the time of travel and in the case of the Tube the
zones travelled through all affect the price cap that gets applied.
That said, so long as you always touch-in and touch-out on the Tube
(and the few rail services that accept Oyster pay-as-you-go) then the
cheapest daily price cap will be applied automatically.

Thank you again. Whenever I go to London I use a One Day Travelcard and
just feed it through the slots in the gates. As a result I have never
bothered to find out how Oyster works.
--
Robert

Thank you again. Whenever I go to London I use a One Day Travelcard

Get an Oyster. If you happen to make fewer journeys than the price of
a ODT, you save. If you make more, it's capped anyway. It spares you
having to decide in advance which zones you want, and you don't need
to queue to get it.

The things where a travelcard is bundled into a day return (which
Chiltern have done for a while, but Virgin now seem to do as well) are
marginal: they're six zone, which is good if you're going to use it
but less good value if you aren't. And I'm never entirely sure
(perhaps someone could comment) on if they include buses.

ian

In article
,
wrote:

The things where a travelcard is bundled into a day return (which
Chiltern have done for a while, but Virgin now seem to do as well) are
marginal: they're six zone, which is good if you're going to use it
but less good value if you aren't. And I'm never entirely sure
(perhaps someone could comment) on if they include buses.

Yes they do.

On 19 Dec, 03:15, "Mr.G" wrote:
In article
,

wrote:
The things where a travelcard is bundled into a day return (which
Chiltern have done for a while, but Virgin now seem to do as well) are
marginal: they're six zone, which is good if you're going to use it
but less good value if you aren't. *And I'm never entirely sure
(perhaps someone could comment) on if they include buses.

Yes they do.

Also include all NR in the zones, which is important if you have to go
to any southern suburbs. Oyster PAYG, with capping, only applies to
LU, buses and a few selected NR routes.

On 2008-12-19 01:44:21 +0000, said:


Thank you again. Whenever I go to London I use a One Day Travelcard

Get an Oyster. If you happen to make fewer journeys than the price of
a ODT, you save. If you make more, it's capped anyway. It spares you
having to decide in advance which zones you want, and you don't need
to queue to get it.

The things where a travelcard is bundled into a day return (which
Chiltern have done for a while, but Virgin now seem to do as well) are
marginal: they're six zone, which is good if you're going to use it
but less good value if you aren't. And I'm never entirely sure
(perhaps someone could comment) on if they include buses.

ian

Sorry, I didn't make it clear that I normally travel to London from
Reading, so the train journey is included in the Travelcard. Using my
'old wrinkly' Railcard it costs GBP 12.50 at the moment. As much London
as I can digest in a day!

The best bit, though, is gazing at Brunel's roof....
--
Robert

wrote

The things where a travelcard is bundled into a day return (which
Chiltern have done for a while, but Virgin now seem to do as well) are
marginal: they're six zone, which is good if you're going to use it
but less good value if you aren't. And I'm never entirely sure
(perhaps someone could comment) on if they include buses.

If your National Rail journey is via a central London terminus the off-peak
ODTC costs about the same as a CDR plus two Zone 1 tube journeys on Oyster.
So if your travel in London is more than this, and especiall;y if it
includes any other National Rail journeys, for which Oyster P&G is not
valid, then the ODTC is better value. However, if you change from National
Rail to TfL at a suburban station (Upminster, Barking, Ealing Broadway, etc)
and then only use Oyster on TfL within London, then a CDR plus Oyster is the
answer.

Peter

In article ,
(Peter Masson) wrote:

wrote

The things where a travelcard is bundled into a day return (which
Chiltern have done for a while, but Virgin now seem to do as well) are
marginal: they're six zone, which is good if you're going to use it
but less good value if you aren't. And I'm never entirely sure
(perhaps someone could comment) on if they include buses.

If your National Rail journey is via a central London terminus the
off-peak ODTC costs about the same as a CDR plus two Zone 1 tube
journeys on Oyster. So if your travel in London is more than this,
and especiall;y if it includes any other National Rail journeys, for
which Oyster P&G is not valid, then the ODTC is better value.
However, if you change from National Rail to TfL at a suburban
station (Upminster, Barking, Ealing Broadway, etc) and then only use
Oyster on TfL within London, then a CDR plus Oyster is the answer.

If only the CDR to ODTC addon was standardised across TOCs! Its well above
that from Cambridge (set by FCC) and lower on others.

Cambridge-KGX CDR ODTC Addon
Plain £18 £24 £6
W/Railcard £11.90 £15.85 £3.95

From 2 January (when a Zone 1 Oyster single goes up to £1.60) it gets
worse:

CDR ODTC Addon
Plain £20 £26.50 £6.50
W/Railcard £13.20 £17.50 £4.30

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On 19 Dec, 01:44, wrote:

Thank you again. Whenever I go to London I use a One Day Travelcard

Get an Oyster. If you happen to make fewer journeys than the price of
a ODT, you save. If you make more, it's capped anyway. It spares you
having to decide in advance which zones you want, and you don't need
to queue to get it.


In situations such as Robert's using Oyster PAYG is not necessarily
cheaper than an 'out-boundary' Day Travelcard, but it could be. I
shall elaborate...


The things where a travelcard is bundled into a day return (which
Chiltern have done for a while, but Virgin now seem to do as well) are
marginal: they're six zone, which is good if you're going to use it
but less good value if you aren't. And I'm never entirely sure
(perhaps someone could comment) on if they include buses.


(As has already been confirmed out-boundary Travelcards are valid on
buses - indeed these days any Travelcard *regardless of zones* is
valid on any red London bus anywhere in Greater London and sometimes
just beyond too, i.e. zones don't matter on buses any more.)

The bundled Travelcard plus day return is known in internal fares
lingo as an 'out-boundary' Day Travelcard - that is a Travelcard
issued outside the boundary of the London zones - and is, as you say,
a Travelcard bundled with a day return. And it's by no means just a
Chiltern (or indeed Virgin) thing.

The Off-peak version of this ticket has existed since the mid/late
80's and was a Network SouthEast innovation. The Peak version was
introduced far more recently
(and in line with the fares simplification is now known as the Anytime
Day Travelcard). Both versions are available from any station in the
former NSE area, and intercity TOCs such as Virgin also make them
available from start points further afield.

The way NSE priced (off-peak) out-boundary Day Travelcards meant they
didn't cost a great deal more than the cost of a CDR to London - i.e.
the premium for the Travelcard bit wasn't much. Since privatisation,
TOCs have adopted a more market based approach and that can mean that
an out-boundary Day Travelcard can cost rather more - i.e. the premium
for the Travelcard bit over the OPDR is greater. (Off-peak Day Return
aka OPDR being a CDR in new money of course.)

Nonetheless it's still quite possible that an out-boundary Day
Travelcard will be cheaper than buying a OPDR and then using Oyster
PAYG within London - the critical thing being how much travelling
around London one is planning on doing (i.e. how many Tube and bus
journeys).

One quick thing to note is that out-boundary *Day* Travelcards are
only available in zones 1-6 flavour (season Travelcards are however
different - you can for example get a Banbury to zones 456 season,
though not a Banbury to zones 123 season - if you wanted that you'd
have to get Banbury to zones 123456).

Back to day fares - looking at Reading to London (which is the journey
I think Robert makes):

-----
OPDR - £14.20 (with Railcard £9.40)
Day Travelcard - £18.90 (with Railcard £12.50)
-----

So (without a Railcard) the premium for a Travelcard is £4.70. One
needs to weigh this up against what one would pay using Oyster PAYG -
a single zone 1 Tube journey being £1.50 (at any time), a single bus
journey being 90p. So if all a passenger was doing was making two zone
1 Tube journeys, or a few bus journeys, then they'd be better off with
Oyster.

The off-peak Oyster PAYG price cap for journeys in zones 1 and 2 is
£4.80, and the cap for bus journeys only is £3 - so actually if you
weren't sure what you was doing but knew you would be staying within
zones 1&2 then using Oyster PAYG might well save you money, and would
at most cost you just 10p more than the out-boundary Day Travelcard.

With a Railcard then the premium for a Travelcard is £3.10 - it's
probably easier for most Railcard holders to get this. However, just
to spice things up, holders of all Railcards *apart from Network
Railcards* can actually take advantage of a discounted Oyster PAYG
daily capping rates - though Railcard holders need to actually go to a
Tube ticket office and activate their Oyster card to take advantage of
this [1].

If they were to do this then the Railcard-discounted Oyster PAYG off-
peak cap for journeys in zones 1&2 is just £3.10 - this is, as you can
see, exactly the same as the premium paid for an out-boundary Day
Travelcard.

So whether it's cheaper to just buy an out-boundary Day Travelcard or
instead get a normal return to London and then use Oyster PAYG depends
on a number of factors...

-----
(1) What the difference between an OPDR and an outboundary Travelcard
actually is - this varies between TOCs.

(2) Whether one is planning on just travelling within zones 1&2 or
further afield - if the latter then the out-boundary Travelcard will
almost certainly be better value.

(3) How many journeys one is planning on doing - if just a couple of
Tube trips then Oyster PAYG will probably be better cheaper.

(4) Again if one is just travelling on buses then Oyster PAYG will
probably be cheaper with its daily bus-only cap of just £3.

(5) Whether one is planning on travelling on National Rail services
within London south of the river (for example to Greenwich), as Oyster
PAYG is not yet valid on these routes [2] - if so then an out-boundary
Travelcard should be purchased.

(6) Whether one holds a Network Railcard - for whatever reason the
discounted Oyster PAYG daily capping rates are not available for
Network Railcards, so an out-boundary Travelcard is likely to be the
best choice (unless you're just making a couple of bus journeys).
-----


In Robert's case he could possibly end up saving a little bit of money
but it depends what Railcard he holds. If it is a Senior Railcard then
(a) if he ever goes to London and only travels by bus or only makes
say one Tube and one bus journey, and (b) can be bothered to get the
Railcard discount loaded on an Oyster card, then he might save a
little cash, though to be honest it is so marginal I wouldn't get very
excited about it!

Anyway, sorry I've made this all sound very complicated, I was only
intending on writing a short post as well! Well there you go - that's
a fairly comprehensive run down of all the various factors that come
in to play here.


-----
[1] See page 20 of the TfL fares and tickets guide for more info on
Railcard discounted daily price caps (PDF):
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...s-zones1-6.pdf
(note that this is the 2008 version - fares go up a bit in January)

[2] This map shows which National Rail routes in London accept Oyster
PAYG (PDF):
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...onal-rail..pdf