From London TravelWatch Board Meeting Agenda for Meeting on 16th
December 2008 - report for item 10, 'Fares Changes in January 2009' -
paragraph 2.6.....

"These changes (rises on National Rail zonal fares) are an interim
arrangement until 20 September 2009 when Oyster Pay as you Go is due
to be introduced across the National Rail Network in London. At this
point a fare structure based on the peak/off-peak principle that is
being introduced on the Underground, Overground & DLR will be put in
place. However, the levels of fare will differ from those on the TfL
modes and when this is introduced some passengers who currently buy
daily, point-to-point or Travelcard season tickets may be better off
using Oyster Pay-as-you-Go."

[x-posted to uk.railway]
[original thread at uk.transport.london]

On 23 Dec, 11:12, Chris wrote:
From London TravelWatch Board Meeting Agenda for Meeting on 16th
December 2008 - report for item 10, 'Fares Changes in January 2009' -
paragraph 2.6.....

"These changes (rises on National Rail zonal fares) are an interim
arrangement until 20 September 2009 when Oyster Pay as you Go is due
to be introduced across the National Rail Network in London. At this
point a fare structure based on the peak/off-peak principle that is
being introduced on the Underground, Overground & DLR will be put in
place. However, the levels of fare will differ from those on the TfL
modes and when this is introduced some passengers who currently buy
daily, point-to-point or Travelcard season tickets may be better off
using Oyster Pay-as-you-Go."


Good find Chris - it might eventually actually be happening then!

The relevant agenda document is available from this page:
http://www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/document/513/3617

It's interesting to note that the Oyster pay-as-you-go (PAYG) fare
scale on National Rail (NR) will be different to that which applies on
London Underground (LU) and the DLR - at the moment all the NR routes
in London that accept Oyster PAYG currently use the standard LU fare
scale [1]. I can only guess that when this gets implemented then all
NR routes will use their own fare scale, apart from those routes which
mirror LU lines where interavailable ticketing is already available,
e.g. Stratford - Liverpool Street or Finsbury Park - Kings Cross.

I'm guessing that the NR fare scale will be higher than the LU one -
will it offer any discount over buying paper tickets for NR journeys
though?

All will become clear in time. I do note the careful qualification in
the document that Oyster PAYG is "due" to be introduced across NR in
London in September 2009. I think I might only entirely believe it
when I see it, and indeed can 'touch' it!

-----
[1] This map shows which NR routes in London currently accept Oyster
PAYG:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...ional-rail.pdf

All will become clear in time. I do note the careful qualification in
the document that Oyster PAYG is "due" to be introduced across NR in
London in September 2009. I think I might only entirely believe it
when I see it, and indeed can 'touch' it!

-----
[1] This map shows which NR routes in London currently accept Oyster
PAYG:http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...ayg-on-nationa...

I note that the Heathrow branch is now included on this map, though it
is grayed out at present.

On 23 Dec, 11:55, Matthew Dickinson
wrote:
I note that the Heathrow branch is now included on this map, though it
is grayed out at present.

The most recent board papers said they're looking at using it on
Heathrow Connect. They also said everyone but SWT (with their ITSO
problems) is installing readers. Slightly hazy on how solid the
agreement was, however.

20 September 2009 is also the Southern franchise changeover date.

U

On 23 Dec, 11:59, Mr Thant
wrote:

On 23 Dec, 11:55, Matthew Dickinson
wrote:

I note that the Heathrow branch is now included on this map, though it
is grayed out at present.

The most recent board papers said they're looking at using it on
Heathrow Connect. They also said everyone but SWT (with their ITSO
problems) is installing readers. Slightly hazy on how solid the
agreement was, however.

20 September 2009 is also the Southern franchise changeover date.


As has been discussed beforehand Oyster readers are being installed
all over Southern Metro territory, though obviously remain out of use
(many underneath black fabric covers).

I'm mildly curios to know who's actually behind this project - if the
franchisee Southern is doing it, then they must surely be doing it as
an agent for someone else - presumably either DfT Rail or TfL, or a
combination of both - because what would be in it for them otherwise,
what with their franchise coming to an end. Of course they might well
win the next franchise - indeed most people seem to think this is
highly likely - but they won't have stumped up money to facilitate the
installation of these Oyster readers based on the gamble that they
would win the next franchise. The other option is that TfL are funding
the works in their entirety. The RSP (or indeed ATOC) couldn't be
behind it, could they?

Anyway, regardless of how it's being done, it's good news. I guess
there may be some worries about the possibility of subsequent cutbacks
in booking office opening hours, as has happened on the Underground.

I'm pretty sure that the TOCs will find their revenue take on London
journeys rise significantly after they start accepting Oyster PAYG,
though to feel the full benefits they might actually have to attempt a
spot of revenue protection enforcement* here and there!

-----
* Not quite the right phrase but you know what I mean.

"Mr Thant" wrote in message
...

20 September 2009 is also the Southern franchise changeover date.

For someone like me, who uses a paper annual NR season plus PAYG for
occasional trips in London, this could be a real nuisance. I have already
mistakenly presented my Oyster card to the NR barriers at Victoria. At the
moment this is no problem: the barrier refuses the card and I get out the
season ticket instead. What's going to happen in the future? Will I get
charged a minimum cash fare and then have to call a premium rate number to
get it refunded? If Southern can offer Oyster compatible tickets all the way
to the coast then the issue goes away, but I don't see evidence of this
happening within the next 9 months.

D A Stocks

On 23 Dec, 15:49, "David A Stocks" wrote:

"Mr Thant" wrote:

20 September 2009 is also the Southern franchise changeover date.

For someone like me, who uses a paper annual NR season plus PAYG for
occasional trips in London, this could be a real nuisance. I have already
mistakenly presented my Oyster card to the NR barriers at Victoria. At the
moment this is no problem: the barrier refuses the card and I get out the
season ticket instead. What's going to happen in the future? Will I get
charged a minimum cash fare and then have to call a premium rate number to
get it refunded? If Southern can offer Oyster compatible tickets all the way
to the coast then the issue goes away, but I don't see evidence of this
happening within the next 9 months.


It remains to be seen whether that could even happen in the next 9
years!

To address your point - if you accidentally used your Oyster card in
teh manner you describe (after Southern start accepting Oyster PAYG)
then you would be charged £5 for an "unresolved journey" - this is
normally £4 at Underground stations, but the £5 charge applies at
London termini stations where Oyster PAYG is already accepted - e.g.
Euston, Liverpool Street etc. (I haven't heard anything about these
charges going up next year.)

The advertised Oyster customer services number is an 0845 number so
it's not premium rate - 0845 being charged at 'local rate', though I
don't think these numbers are included in any bundled 'free' calls to
landline numbers. There is however a London landline number that one
can use instead, which is 020 7227 7886.

I'm doubt that you would be routinely refunded if you made this
mistake over and over, though I imagine they might refund you the
first time it happened. The argument for taking such a stance would
simply be that it was your fault, not theirs. Do note that I don't
have an inside track on what TfL policy is on this.

I can understand your comments, and I'm certain sure that many will
make this mistake. However in absolutely no way can this consideration
outweigh the gain in utility that will arise from Oyster PAYG being
accepted across the National Rail network in London.

On Tue, 23 Dec 2008 03:59:33 -0800 (PST), Mr Thant
wrote:

On 23 Dec, 11:55, Matthew Dickinson
wrote:
I note that the Heathrow branch is now included on this map, though it
is grayed out at present.

The most recent board papers said they're looking at using it on
Heathrow Connect. They also said everyone but SWT (with their ITSO
problems) is installing readers. Slightly hazy on how solid the
agreement was, however.

Heathrow Connect implementation is planned for 22 Feb 2009. There will
be separate fares to cover the higher rate into Heathrow plus higher
daily peak and off peak caps. In addition the minimum fare deduction on
entry will rise to £8 at Heathrow and Paddington Main Line.
--
Paul C

On 23 Dec, 18:11, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Tue, 23 Dec 2008 03:59:33 -0800 (PST), Mr Thant

wrote:
On 23 Dec, 11:55, Matthew Dickinson
wrote:
I note that the Heathrow branch is now included on this map, though it
is grayed out at present.

The most recent board papers said they're looking at using it on
Heathrow Connect. They also said everyone but SWT (with their ITSO
problems) is installing readers. Slightly hazy on how solid the
agreement was, however.

Heathrow Connect implementation is planned for 22 Feb 2009. There will
be separate fares to cover the higher rate into Heathrow plus higher
daily peak and off peak caps. In addition the minimum fare deduction on
entry will rise to £8 at Heathrow and Paddington Main Line.

Thanks for the info. Somewhat esoteric questions comments follow...

So the arrangement at Heathrow mainline stations (for Heathrow Connect
services) will be a bit like the "zone W" arrangement at Watford
Junction (though this "zone W" concept is only used in internal
communications, not passenger facing ones) - i.e. a station outside
the normal zones that accepts Oyster PAYG.

Presumably, so as to cover every eventuality, there will have to be
"zone H" + "zone W" daily price caps (in both peak and off-peak
flavours).

On Tue, 23 Dec 2008 03:12:40 -0800 (PST), Chris wrote:

At this point a fare structure based on the peak/off-peak principle that
is being introduced on the Underground, Overground & DLR will be put in
place.

I thought that Underground, Overground & DLR has had a peak/off-peak
principle for years.

--
jhk