From London TravelWatch Board Meeting Agenda for Meeting on 16th
December 2008 - report for item 10, 'Fares Changes in January 2009' -
paragraph 2.6.....

"These changes (rises on National Rail zonal fares) are an interim
arrangement until 20 September 2009 when Oyster Pay as you Go is due
to be introduced across the National Rail Network in London. At this
point a fare structure based on the peak/off-peak principle that is
being introduced on the Underground, Overground & DLR will be put in
place. However, the levels of fare will differ from those on the TfL
modes and when this is introduced some passengers who currently buy
daily, point-to-point or Travelcard season tickets may be better off
using Oyster Pay-as-you-Go."

[x-posted to uk.railway]
[original thread at uk.transport.london]

On 23 Dec, 11:12, Chris wrote:
From London TravelWatch Board Meeting Agenda for Meeting on 16th
December 2008 - report for item 10, 'Fares Changes in January 2009' -
paragraph 2.6.....

"These changes (rises on National Rail zonal fares) are an interim
arrangement until 20 September 2009 when Oyster Pay as you Go is due
to be introduced across the National Rail Network in London. At this
point a fare structure based on the peak/off-peak principle that is
being introduced on the Underground, Overground & DLR will be put in
place. However, the levels of fare will differ from those on the TfL
modes and when this is introduced some passengers who currently buy
daily, point-to-point or Travelcard season tickets may be better off
using Oyster Pay-as-you-Go."


Good find Chris - it might eventually actually be happening then!

The relevant agenda document is available from this page:
http://www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/document/513/3617

It's interesting to note that the Oyster pay-as-you-go (PAYG) fare
scale on National Rail (NR) will be different to that which applies on
London Underground (LU) and the DLR - at the moment all the NR routes
in London that accept Oyster PAYG currently use the standard LU fare
scale [1]. I can only guess that when this gets implemented then all
NR routes will use their own fare scale, apart from those routes which
mirror LU lines where interavailable ticketing is already available,
e.g. Stratford - Liverpool Street or Finsbury Park - Kings Cross.

I'm guessing that the NR fare scale will be higher than the LU one -
will it offer any discount over buying paper tickets for NR journeys
though?

All will become clear in time. I do note the careful qualification in
the document that Oyster PAYG is "due" to be introduced across NR in
London in September 2009. I think I might only entirely believe it
when I see it, and indeed can 'touch' it!

-----
[1] This map shows which NR routes in London currently accept Oyster
PAYG:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...ional-rail.pdf

All will become clear in time. I do note the careful qualification in
the document that Oyster PAYG is "due" to be introduced across NR in
London in September 2009. I think I might only entirely believe it
when I see it, and indeed can 'touch' it!

-----
[1] This map shows which NR routes in London currently accept Oyster
PAYG:http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...ayg-on-nationa...

I note that the Heathrow branch is now included on this map, though it
is grayed out at present.

On 23 Dec, 11:55, Matthew Dickinson
wrote:
I note that the Heathrow branch is now included on this map, though it
is grayed out at present.

The most recent board papers said they're looking at using it on
Heathrow Connect. They also said everyone but SWT (with their ITSO
problems) is installing readers. Slightly hazy on how solid the
agreement was, however.

20 September 2009 is also the Southern franchise changeover date.

U

On 23 Dec, 11:59, Mr Thant
wrote:

On 23 Dec, 11:55, Matthew Dickinson
wrote:

I note that the Heathrow branch is now included on this map, though it
is grayed out at present.

The most recent board papers said they're looking at using it on
Heathrow Connect. They also said everyone but SWT (with their ITSO
problems) is installing readers. Slightly hazy on how solid the
agreement was, however.

20 September 2009 is also the Southern franchise changeover date.


As has been discussed beforehand Oyster readers are being installed
all over Southern Metro territory, though obviously remain out of use
(many underneath black fabric covers).

I'm mildly curios to know who's actually behind this project - if the
franchisee Southern is doing it, then they must surely be doing it as
an agent for someone else - presumably either DfT Rail or TfL, or a
combination of both - because what would be in it for them otherwise,
what with their franchise coming to an end. Of course they might well
win the next franchise - indeed most people seem to think this is
highly likely - but they won't have stumped up money to facilitate the
installation of these Oyster readers based on the gamble that they
would win the next franchise. The other option is that TfL are funding
the works in their entirety. The RSP (or indeed ATOC) couldn't be
behind it, could they?

Anyway, regardless of how it's being done, it's good news. I guess
there may be some worries about the possibility of subsequent cutbacks
in booking office opening hours, as has happened on the Underground.

I'm pretty sure that the TOCs will find their revenue take on London
journeys rise significantly after they start accepting Oyster PAYG,
though to feel the full benefits they might actually have to attempt a
spot of revenue protection enforcement* here and there!

-----
* Not quite the right phrase but you know what I mean.

On Tue, 23 Dec 2008 03:12:40 -0800 (PST), Chris wrote:

At this point a fare structure based on the peak/off-peak principle that
is being introduced on the Underground, Overground & DLR will be put in
place.

I thought that Underground, Overground & DLR has had a peak/off-peak
principle for years.

--
jhk

On 23 Dec, 13:46, Jarle H Knudsen wrote:

On Tue, 23 Dec 2008 03:12:40 -0800 (PST), Chris wrote:
At this point a fare structure based on the peak/off-peak principle that
is being introduced on the Underground, Overground & DLR will be put in
place.

I thought that Underground, Overground & DLR has had a peak/off-peak
principle for years.


Yes it does, but that needs to be explained a bit! What is happening
is a new 'off-peak' period for London Underground (LU) fares during
the day.

Let me try and explain this quickly and concisely. When buying a
suburban (i.e. mainline) rail ticket, one can either get a more
expensive *Anytime* Day Return for unlimited use at any time including
before 0930, and a cheaper *Off-Peak* Day Return only available for
use *after 0930* weekdays (and all the time at weekends and public
holidays). This basic rule applies across London and the south east of
England, albeit with a number of exceptions - though there are no
exceptions for journeys wholly within London. (Note that in London
single rail tickets do not have a peak/off-peak divide - they are all
the same price)

This principal extends to Day Travelcards, which allow unlimited
travel on any suburban, Underground, and DLR trains within the zones
of the Travelcard (and any London buses regardless of zones - the bus
network doesn't have a zonal fare system any more). There are (pretty)
expensive *Anytime* Day Travelcards (the new name for Peak Day
Travelcards) which permit unlimited use at any time including before
0930 weekdays, and then cheaper Off-Peak Day Travelcards only for use
after 0930 weekdays and (and all the time at weekends and public
holidays).

When using Oyster PAYG there are daily price caps that are
'equivalent' to the Day Travelcard, with both higher 'Peak' caps and
lower 'Off-Peak' caps (the caps depend on what zones you have
travelled through)
N.B.- the system is designed to ensure that you always get the best
value, which might mean that during one day you could be capped at the
relevant Off-Peak daily price cap rate and also pay for a single
journey during the peak time if this is cheaper than paying the Peak
cap.


OK, got that? Now let's make things more complicated! There is a quite
separate peak/off-peak regime for Oyster PAYG single fares on LU fares
(this includes the DLR and also the limited number of NR routes that
currently accept Oyster PAYG). So far this has not actually
explicitly been called "Peak" and "Off-Peak", presumably to avoid
confusion with the Travelcard and daily price capping Peak and Off-
Peak regime as described above - it has instead been referred to in
TfL publicity by the different times of the day the different fare
levels apply to (see below), also the different fare levels have also
been called the "higher Oyster fare" and the "lower Oyster fare" (and
in internal documents they are called the "standard Oyster fare" and
"discount Oyster fare"). However it seems that TfL have given up on
any attempt not to pollute the meaning of Peak and Off-Peak, and have
given in to the inevitable and now also calling these Oyster single
fares "peak" ("higher"/ "standard") and "off-peak" ("lower"/
"discount"). In large part I expect this is because of the fares
changes coming into effect in 2009.

What has happened so far (up until the 2008 fares) is that the higher
Oyster PAYG fare has been charged for single LU journeys "Monday to
Friday from 0700 and before 1900", and the lower fare has been charged
"All other times including public holidays" - see page 16 of the 2008
Fares booklet here (PDF):
http://mizter.t.googlepages.com/fare...s-zones1-6.pdf


This is all changing next year - basically the higher Oyster fare will
only be charged during the morning and evening rush hours, at other
times the lower fare will apply. Specifically this is what the new
2009 Fares booklet has to say:
"Peak Oyster single fares apply from 0630 to 0930 and from 1600 to
1900 Monday to Friday (excluding public holidays). At all other times,
the Off-Peak Oyster single fare applies."
(see page 5) (PDF)
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...6-02-01-09.pdf


The London Travelwatch document suggests that when Oyster PAYG is
implemented all across National Rail in London next September, whilst
the actual level of fares will be different to LU (though standardised
across all TOCs) the same Peak/Off-Peak time windows will apply.

There are thus now two different charging regimes which both use the
"Peak" and "Off-Peak" terminology but to mean different things.
Confusion, here we come!

(It's worth noting that the higher Peak fare will be charged if a
passenger touches-in or out anytime during the relevant Peak time-
window. Buses and trams do not charge peak fares, and the daily price
cap for bus and tram journeys of £3 - £3.30 next year - applies
regardless of the time of day, i.e. there is no peak/off-peak divide
when it comes to bus-only capping. Likewise the paper one day Bus Pass
is valid at any time of the day.)

I trust that's all as clear as the muddy Thames?

"Mr Thant" wrote in message
...

20 September 2009 is also the Southern franchise changeover date.

For someone like me, who uses a paper annual NR season plus PAYG for
occasional trips in London, this could be a real nuisance. I have already
mistakenly presented my Oyster card to the NR barriers at Victoria. At the
moment this is no problem: the barrier refuses the card and I get out the
season ticket instead. What's going to happen in the future? Will I get
charged a minimum cash fare and then have to call a premium rate number to
get it refunded? If Southern can offer Oyster compatible tickets all the way
to the coast then the issue goes away, but I don't see evidence of this
happening within the next 9 months.

D A Stocks

On 23 Dec, 15:28, Mizter T wrote:

On 23 Dec, 13:46, Jarle H Knudsen wrote:

On Tue, 23 Dec 2008 03:12:40 -0800 (PST), Chris wrote:
At this point a fare structure based on the peak/off-peak principle
that is being introduced on the Underground, Overground & DLR
will be put in place.

I thought that Underground, Overground & DLR has had a
peak/off-peak principle for years.

Yes it does, but that needs to be explained a bit! What is happening
is a new 'off-peak' period for London Underground (LU) fares during
the day.

Let me try and explain this quickly and concisely. When buying a
suburban (i.e. mainline) rail ticket, one can either get a more
expensive *Anytime* Day Return for unlimited use at any time including
before 0930, and a cheaper *Off-Peak* Day Return only available for
use *after 0930* weekdays (and all the time at weekends and public
holidays). This basic rule applies across London and the south east of
England, albeit with a number of exceptions - though there are no
exceptions for journeys wholly within London. (Note that in London
single rail tickets do not have a peak/off-peak divide - they are all
the same price)

This principal extends to Day Travelcards, which allow unlimited
travel on any suburban, Underground, and DLR trains within the zones
of the Travelcard (and any London buses regardless of zones - the bus
network doesn't have a zonal fare system any more). There are (pretty)
expensive *Anytime* Day Travelcards (the new name for Peak Day
Travelcards) which permit unlimited use at any time including before
0930 weekdays, and then cheaper Off-Peak Day Travelcards only for use
after 0930 weekdays and (and all the time at weekends and public
holidays).

When using Oyster PAYG there are daily price caps that are
'equivalent' to the Day Travelcard, with both higher 'Peak' caps and
lower 'Off-Peak' caps (the caps depend on what zones you have
travelled through)
N.B.- the system is designed to ensure that you always get the best
value, which might mean that during one day you could be capped at the
relevant Off-Peak daily price cap rate and also pay for a single
journey during the peak time if this is cheaper than paying the Peak
cap.

OK, got that? Now let's make things more complicated! There is a quite
separate peak/off-peak regime for Oyster PAYG single fares on LU fares
(this includes the DLR and also the limited number of NR routes that
currently accept Oyster PAYG). *So far this has not actually
explicitly been called "Peak" and "Off-Peak", presumably to avoid
confusion with the Travelcard and daily price capping Peak and Off-
Peak regime as described above - it has instead been referred to in
TfL publicity by the different times of the day the different fare
levels apply to (see below), also the different fare levels have also
been called the "higher Oyster fare" and the "lower Oyster fare" (and
in internal documents they are called the "standard Oyster fare" and
"discount Oyster fare"). However it seems that TfL have given up on
any attempt not to pollute the meaning of Peak and Off-Peak, and have
given in to the inevitable and now also calling these Oyster single
fares "peak" ("higher"/ "standard") and "off-peak" ("lower"/
"discount"). In large part I expect this is because of the fares
changes coming into effect in 2009.

What has happened so far (up until the 2008 fares) is that the higher
Oyster PAYG fare has been charged for single LU journeys "Monday to
Friday from 0700 and before 1900", and the lower fare has been charged
"All other times including public holidays" - see page 16 of the 2008
Fares booklet here (PDF):http://mizter.t.googlepages.com/fare...s-zones1-6.pdf

This is all changing next year - basically the higher Oyster fare will
only be charged during the morning and evening rush hours, at other
times the lower fare will apply. Specifically this is what the new
2009 Fares booklet has to say:
*"Peak Oyster single fares apply from 0630 to 0930 and from 1600 to
1900 Monday to Friday (excluding public holidays). At all other times,
the Off-Peak Oyster single fare applies."
*(see page 5) (PDF)http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...res-and-ticket...

The London Travelwatch document suggests that when Oyster PAYG is
implemented all across National Rail in London next September, whilst
the actual level of fares will be different to LU (though standardised
across all TOCs) the same Peak/Off-Peak time windows will apply.

There are thus now two different charging regimes which both use the
"Peak" and "Off-Peak" terminology but to mean different things.
Confusion, here we come!

(It's worth noting that the higher Peak fare will be charged if a
passenger touches-in or out anytime during the relevant Peak time-
window. Buses and trams do not charge peak fares, and the daily price
cap for bus and tram journeys of £3 - £3.30 next year - applies
regardless of the time of day, i.e. there is no peak/off-peak divide
when it comes to bus-only capping. Likewise the paper one day Bus Pass
is valid at any time of the day.)

I trust that's all as clear as the muddy Thames?


Obviously I didn't do a very good job at being concise. Thinking about
it perhaps this would be a better summary...

---
* The Peak and Off-Peak Oyster daily price capping regimes continue as
before - journeys made between 0430 and 0930 on weekdays contribute
towards the Peak cap. Journeys at all other times contribute towards
the Off-Peak cap. (In certain scenarios a passenger will pay the level
of an Off-Peak cap plus a single peak-time journey if that works out
cheaper that the Peak cap.)

* From 2 Jan 2009, on weekdays the Peak Oyster PAYG fare is only
charged for journeys between 06:30 and 09:30, and also between 1600
and 1900. At all other times the Off-Peak Oyster PAYG fare will be
charged.

* Therefore someone travelling between 1600 and 1900 will pay the Peak
Oyster PAYG fare, however the journey will only contribute towards the
Off-Peak daily price cap.
* Likewise someone travelling before 0630 will pay the Off-Peak Oyster
PAYG fare, but that journey will contribute towards a Peak daily price
cap.

* Slightly different rules apply on the suburban rail route between
Euston and Watford Junction - these are to the benefit of the
passenger as they basically mean the Off-Peak Oyster PAYG fare applies
more widely.

* There are not different Peak and Off-Peak fares on London buses, the
same flat fare of £1 (from 2009) applies regardless of the time of
day. All bus journeys during a single day, regardless of the time of
day (i.e. between 0430 - 0429 early the next morning) contribute
towards a bus-only daily price cap of £3.30. However if a passenger is
also using LU, DLR or NR services (on routes where Oyster PAYG is
accepted) during that day then bus journeys before 0930 may contribute
towards a Peak daily price cap instead if that works out cheaper for
the passenger - otherwise any bus journeys before 0930 may be charged
separately.
---

That might be a better summary. Explaining in simple terms how bus
journeys fit in with daily price capping is actually the most
difficult bit - this is despite the fact that if one *only* travels by
bus during any one day, it's actually the simplest bit (i.e. no zones,
no time windows, just a cap of £3.30)!

On 23 Dec, 15:49, "David A Stocks" wrote:

"Mr Thant" wrote:

20 September 2009 is also the Southern franchise changeover date.

For someone like me, who uses a paper annual NR season plus PAYG for
occasional trips in London, this could be a real nuisance. I have already
mistakenly presented my Oyster card to the NR barriers at Victoria. At the
moment this is no problem: the barrier refuses the card and I get out the
season ticket instead. What's going to happen in the future? Will I get
charged a minimum cash fare and then have to call a premium rate number to
get it refunded? If Southern can offer Oyster compatible tickets all the way
to the coast then the issue goes away, but I don't see evidence of this
happening within the next 9 months.


It remains to be seen whether that could even happen in the next 9
years!

To address your point - if you accidentally used your Oyster card in
teh manner you describe (after Southern start accepting Oyster PAYG)
then you would be charged £5 for an "unresolved journey" - this is
normally £4 at Underground stations, but the £5 charge applies at
London termini stations where Oyster PAYG is already accepted - e.g.
Euston, Liverpool Street etc. (I haven't heard anything about these
charges going up next year.)

The advertised Oyster customer services number is an 0845 number so
it's not premium rate - 0845 being charged at 'local rate', though I
don't think these numbers are included in any bundled 'free' calls to
landline numbers. There is however a London landline number that one
can use instead, which is 020 7227 7886.

I'm doubt that you would be routinely refunded if you made this
mistake over and over, though I imagine they might refund you the
first time it happened. The argument for taking such a stance would
simply be that it was your fault, not theirs. Do note that I don't
have an inside track on what TfL policy is on this.

I can understand your comments, and I'm certain sure that many will
make this mistake. However in absolutely no way can this consideration
outweigh the gain in utility that will arise from Oyster PAYG being
accepted across the National Rail network in London.