Specifically, the am peak.

I notice that it is 0630-0930 for peak single prices on the tube, but
the peak cap runs from 0400...(? - start of service).

Why can't they charge off-peak cap on travel prior to 0630, if no
further travel is done until after 0930 (and before or after the pm
peak)?

All the recording is computerised, so it should be simple to get the
programming right....so what's the reason?

On 4 Jan, 13:01, Chris wrote:
Specifically, the am peak.

I notice that it is 0630-0930 for peak single prices on the tube, but
the peak cap runs from 0400...(? - start of service).


No, 0430 (the Oyster charging day runs from 0430 to 0430).


Why can't they charge off-peak cap on travel prior to 0630, if no
further travel is done until after 0930 (and before or after the pm
peak)?

All the recording is computerised, so it should be simple to get the
programming right....so what's the reason?


A fair enough question though, one I pondered myself on examining the
new fares. A few thoughts... First off, perhaps configuring the system
to enable this isn't actually a simple matter at all (and is perhaps
not even possible).

Secondly, in this hypothetical scenario there would only be a two hour
window in the early morning (0430 to 0630) that would count towards an
Off-Peak cap before the peak cap kicked in between 0630 and 0930 -
implementing this was perhaps simply not thought worthwhile,
considering the strictly limited number of people who might benefit
from it.

Thirdly, there's an argument about keeping it simple - OK, there are
now somewhat confusingly two definitions of Peak and Off-Peak in
operation w.r.t. Oyster, that of daily capping and separately that of
single fares - but the notion that morning peak journeys before 0930
count towards the Peak cap is arguably far simpler to communicate to
passengers.

Fourthly, Oyster daily capping rates shadow the prices of Day
Travelcards (the caps are all 50p less than the quasi-equivalent Day
Travelcard) - perhaps it's easier, simpler, or even necessary for the
Oyster Off-Peak daily caps to shadow the time restrictions of Off-Peak
Day Travelcards [1].

Fifthly (and connected to the last point), Oyster PAYG is being rolled
out across National Rail - if there was to be a two hour Off-Peak
capping window (0430-0630) in the morning that would presumably
require the agreement of the TOCs. This may well not be forthcoming -
TOCs aren't keen on reducing their potential revenue, and are also
rather wary of TfL and the Mayor dictating their fares (which is in a
sense what this would entail).
Also TOCs might be wary of implementing it because of the resulting
problems it might cause - in general mainline rail services don't get
going until a bit later than the Tube, so rail passengers might end up
frustrated in their efforts to slip in the Off-Peak window and
complete their journey before 0630, especially if a train was delayed
or cancelled.


One might say that some night workers might benefit from the 0430-0630
window being included in the Off-Peak cap, which is something I would
be sympathetic to if this was the case - but I'm far from sure that
that arguemnt stacks up... the reason being is, essentially people who
are travelling every day to work will either simply be paying single
Oyster PAYG fares (which are now cheaper pre-0630 on the Tube) or will
buy a period Travelcard, depending on which works out cheaper for them
- in other words regular (i.e. more or less daily) commuters simply
shouldn't be relying on daily capping for their normal journey,
because it will be more expensive for them.


-----
[1] Off-Peak Day Travelcards actually have a potential validity period
of 28 1/2hrs (from midnight until 0430 the following morning), but one
can only take advantage of this on Saturdays, Sunday and public
holidays (i.e. the only days when Off-Peak Travelcards are valid all
day inc. before 0930).

In message
of
Sun, 4 Jan 2009 07:19:37 in uk.transport.london, Mizter T
writes

[snip]

because it will be more expensive for them.


-----
[1] Off-Peak Day Travelcards actually have a potential validity period
of 28 1/2hrs (from midnight until 0430 the following morning), but one
can only take advantage of this on Saturdays, Sunday and public
holidays (i.e. the only days when Off-Peak Travelcards are valid all
day inc. before 0930).

I would appreciate a quote from
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...-and-tickets-Z
-1-6-02-01-09.pdf to support this intriguing suggestion. I think
validity starts at 04.30 and runs up to but not including 04.30. Fun
would start on services - bus or national rail service - where a journey
starts before 04.30, but ends after.

Does anybody know a station which has operational gate lines about 05.00
and train services starting before 04.30? The 03.50 weekday service from
East Croydon which takes 3 changes (at Wimbledon, Waterloo and Waterloo
East) before arriving at London Bridge at 05.25 fits the time criterion.
Sadly, I have never seen operational gates at London Bridge after 22.00
and I don't suppose they are used before 06.00.
--
Walter Briscoe

On Jan 4, 5:26*pm, Walter Briscoe wrote:
In message
of
Sun, 4 Jan 2009 07:19:37 in uk.transport.london, Mizter T
writes

[snip]

because it will be more expensive for them.

-----
[1] Off-Peak Day Travelcards actually have a potential validity period
of 28 1/2hrs (from midnight until 0430 the following morning), but one
can only take advantage of this on Saturdays, Sunday and public
holidays (i.e. the only days when Off-Peak Travelcards are valid all
day inc. before 0930).

I would appreciate a quote from
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...-and-tickets-Z
-1-6-02-01-09.pdf to support this intriguing suggestion. I think
validity starts at 04.30 and runs up to but not including 04.30. Fun
would start on services - bus or national rail service - where a journey
starts before 04.30, but ends after.


See:

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/faresandtickets/1055.aspx

especially the following paragraph.

"Anytime Day Travelcards

Can be used all day Monday to Friday, on the day of validity, and for
any journey that starts before 04:30 the following day. On public
holidays it is cheaper to buy an Off-Peak Day Travelcard."

Nothing about the ticket starting at 04.30, just that it is valid for
any departure upto 04.30 the following day. One-day travelcards are
printed with the date that they are valid for and I have once bought
one after midnight for validity all day. Ticket machines are not
generally programmed for issuing a ticket dated the previous day,
which is what would be required for validity starting at 04.30.


Does anybody know a station which has operational gate lines about 05.00
and train services starting before 04.30? The 03.50 weekday service from
East Croydon which takes 3 changes (at Wimbledon, Waterloo and Waterloo
East) before arriving at London Bridge at 05.25 fits the time criterion.
Sadly, I have never seen operational gates at London Bridge after 22.00
and I don't suppose they are used before 06.00.
--
Walter Briscoe

On 4 Jan, 17:26, Walter Briscoe wrote:

In message
of
Sun, 4 Jan 2009 07:19:37 in uk.transport.london, Mizter T
writes

[snip]

-----
[1] Off-Peak Day Travelcards actually have a potential validity period
of 28 1/2hrs (from midnight until 0430 the following morning), but one
can only take advantage of this on Saturdays, Sunday and public
holidays (i.e. the only days when Off-Peak Travelcards are valid all
day inc. before 0930).

I would appreciate a quote from
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...-and-tickets-Z
-1-6-02-01-09.pdf to support this intriguing suggestion. I think
validity starts at 04.30 and runs up to but not including 04.30. Fun
would start on services - bus or national rail service - where a journey
starts before 04.30, but ends after.


No quote to support that but how about personal experience instead?
I've had the foresight to buy an Off-Peak Day Travelcard a number of
times in order to take advantage of this at weekends (basically when I
know I'll need a Travelcard the next day to use National Rail trains)
- said tickets have been purchased after midnight from both National
Rail and London Underground ticket machines and have been issued with
the date or purchase, as opposed to the previous day's date. They have
been accepted as valid by LU ticket gates and by bus drivers (and I
think by a TfL bus RPI during a late night bendy bus ticket check, but
my memory of such things is a little hazy!).

Actually at least once I purchased a Day Travelcard for the same
reasons before midnight - Southern's (Shere) ticket machines allow one
to buy tickets for tomorrow after 4pm, as do those of other TOCs
(though I think Southeastern's S&B machines aren't quite as clever and
only offer 'tickets for tomorrow' between Sunday and Thursday, as the
next day is a normal weekday and hence the only non-season tickets on
offer are Anytime [i.e. peak] tickets - I suspect the reason being is
that they can't cope with the notion that 'tomorrow' might be either a
weekday or the weekend/a public holiday which has no morning peak
period).

That's without taking account of the fact that one can purchase a Day
Travelcard for tomorrow from rail and Tube station ticket offices and
from participating newsagents (not sure if any ticket offices get
difficult when it comes to selling Off-Peak Day Travelcards for the
next day when that day is a weekday, I seem to recall reading about
someone having trouble doing this but AIUI it's permitted under the
rules).

By the by I don't know why I singled out Off-Peak Day Travelcards as
having this potential 28 1/2 hour validity period, as it would apply
just as much to a Peak Day Travelcard too - these can similarly be
purchased after midnight from ticket machines, or indeed purchased
prior to midnight from some ticket machines too - or again simply
bought from a ticket office during opening hours.

Anyway I have now just found this TfL webpage about the validities of
Anytime and Off-Peak Travelcards which by my reading supports what I
have said (and indeed what I've actually done in the past):
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/faresandtickets/1055.aspx

For the record I will quote the relevant bits:
---quote---
* Anytime Day Travelcards
Can be used all day Monday to Friday, on the day of validity, and for
any journey that starts before 04:30 the following day. On public
holidays it is cheaper to buy an Off-Peak Day Travelcard.

* Off-Peak Day Travelcards
Can be used from 09:30 Monday to Friday or all day Saturday, Sunday
and public holidays on the day of validity and for any journey that
starts before 04:30 on the following day.
---/quote---

On Sun, 4 Jan 2009 17:26:19 +0000, Walter Briscoe
wrote:

Mizter T:
[1] Off-Peak Day Travelcards actually have a potential validity period
of 28 1/2hrs (from midnight until 0430 the following morning), but one
can only take advantage of this on Saturdays, Sunday and public
holidays (i.e. the only days when Off-Peak Travelcards are valid all
day inc. before 0930).

I would appreciate a quote from
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...-and-tickets-Z
-1-6-02-01-09.pdf to support this intriguing suggestion. I think
validity starts at 04.30 and runs up to but not including 04.30. Fun
would start on services - bus or national rail service - where a journey
starts before 04.30, but ends after.

I think I can answer that, at least from the Underground's point of
view. Just before Christmas, I need to buy an off-peak day Travelcard
on the train, as the ticket machine couldn't sell it. The guard was
very happy to sell it, but accidentally issued it for the next day. I
only found out when I tried to go through the gateline at Charing
Cross, where they told me that I would need to go back to Waterloo to
get it changed. I intend to complain about that - it's an RSP ticket
after all - but anyway...

My journey didn't need the Underground in the end but tired and
emotional I returned to Piccadilly Circus just after midnight, where
my ticket, which I thought might now be valid, was rejected. It may
of course be keeping the gate config simple, rather than a statement
of policy... With a minute to go to get my train at Waterloo, I
didn't hang around to discuss the conditions of carriage!

Richard.

On 4 Jan, 20:22, Richard wrote:

On Sun, 4 Jan 2009 17:26:19 +0000, Walter Briscoe

wrote:
Mizter T:
[1] Off-Peak Day Travelcards actually have a potential validity period
of 28 1/2hrs (from midnight until 0430 the following morning), but one
can only take advantage of this on Saturdays, Sunday and public
holidays (i.e. the only days when Off-Peak Travelcards are valid all
day inc. before 0930).

I would appreciate a quote from
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...-and-tickets-Z
-1-6-02-01-09.pdf to support this intriguing suggestion. I think
validity starts at 04.30 and runs up to but not including 04.30. Fun
would start on services - bus or national rail service - where a journey
starts before 04.30, but ends after.

I think I can answer that, at least from the Underground's point of
view. *Just before Christmas, I need to buy an off-peak day Travelcard
on the train, as the ticket machine couldn't sell it. *The guard was
very happy to sell it, but accidentally issued it for the next day. *I
only found out when I tried to go through the gateline at Charing
Cross, where they told me that I would need to go back to Waterloo to
get it changed. *I intend to complain about that - it's an RSP ticket
after all - but anyway...


I'm mildly curious to know where this ticket machine that couldn't
sell an Off-Peak Day Travelcard was - it seems rather remiss for any
ticket machine within reasonable reach of London by rail (i.e. around
the south east) not to have it as an option.


My journey didn't need the Underground in the end but tired and
emotional I returned to Piccadilly Circus just after midnight, where
my ticket, which I thought might now be valid, was rejected. *It may
of course be keeping the gate config simple, rather than a statement
of policy... *With a minute to go to get my train at Waterloo, I
didn't hang around to discuss the conditions of carriage!


Was the next day a weekday? If so then what happened would make
perfect sense - an Off-Peak Day Travelcard would not be valid until
after 0930 on a weekday, full stop.

I'm sure I have used a Off-Peak Travelcard, issued in advance the day
before by a National Rail ticket machine, to successfully get through
LU ticket gates after midnight on a Friday or Saturday night (i.e. in
the first hour of its validity).

On Sun, 4 Jan 2009 12:55:52 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:

On 4 Jan, 20:22, Richard wrote:
I think I can answer that, at least from the Underground's point of
view. *Just before Christmas, I need to buy an off-peak day Travelcard
on the train, as the ticket machine couldn't sell it. [...]

I'm mildly curious to know where this ticket machine that couldn't
sell an Off-Peak Day Travelcard was - it seems rather remiss for any
ticket machine within reasonable reach of London by rail (i.e. around
the south east) not to have it as an option.

I was trying unsuccessfully to keep the rant short! I did have a
ticket from Fleet to Surbiton and wanted a Travelcard to start from
there. A pity that there isn't an "advanced" mode for more exotic
tickets.

My journey didn't need the Underground in the end but tired and
emotional I returned to Piccadilly Circus just after midnight, where
my ticket, which I thought might now be valid, was rejected. *[...]

Was the next day a weekday? If so then what happened would make
perfect sense - an Off-Peak Day Travelcard would not be valid until
after 0930 on a weekday, full stop.

Yes, of course... I thought for a moment that it wasn't but in fact it
was the first minutes of Tuesday 23rd. Thanks for clearing that up!

Richard.

Can we get back to my query now?? :-)

On 4 Jan, 15:19, Mizter T wrote:
Why can't they charge off-peak cap on travel prior to 0630, if no
further travel is done until after 0930 (and before or after the pm
peak)?

A fair enough question though, one I pondered myself on examining the
new fares. A few thoughts...

Secondly, in this hypothetical scenario there would only be a two hour
window in the early morning (0430 to 0630) that would count towards an
Off-Peak cap before the peak cap kicked in between 0630 and 0930 -
implementing this was perhaps simply not thought worthwhile,
considering the strictly limited number of people who might benefit
from it.

Hmmm - sorry, but that would be incredibly sloppy of TfL if you're
right....there's a lot of 6am shift workers who travel before
0600....never mind 0630. It might also encourage more people to travel
out of high-peak times, if they can.

Thirdly, there's an argument about keeping it simple - OK, there are
now somewhat confusingly two definitions of Peak and Off-Peak in
operation w.r.t. Oyster, that of daily capping and separately that of
single fares - but the notion that morning peak journeys before 0930
count towards the Peak cap is arguably far simpler to communicate to
passengers.

Again, it's very sloppy, and to be frank, unacceptable if it's the
right answer....

Fourthly, Oyster daily capping rates shadow the prices of Day
Travelcards (the caps are all 50p less than the quasi-equivalent Day
Travelcard) - perhaps it's easier, simpler, or even necessary for the
Oyster Off-Peak daily caps to shadow the time restrictions of Off-Peak
Day Travelcards [1].

Ditto above, sorry.

Fifthly (and connected to the last point), Oyster PAYG is being rolled
out across National Rail - if there was to be a two hour Off-Peak
capping window (0430-0630) in the morning that would presumably
require the agreement of the TOCs. This may well not be forthcoming -
TOCs aren't keen on reducing their potential revenue, and are also
rather wary of TfL and the Mayor dictating their fares (which is in a
sense what this would entail).

I think you've hit the nail on the head - there's little chance that
TOCs will allow an off-peak period prior to 0630.....

Also TOCs might be wary of implementing it because of the resulting
problems it might cause - in general mainline rail services don't get
going until a bit later than the Tube, so rail passengers might end up
frustrated in their efforts to slip in the Off-Peak window and
complete their journey before 0630, especially if a train was delayed
or cancelled.

Once the stations are all gated (the London stations I assume will all
be gated to take Oyster PAYG?), maybe they'll think about it to reduce
the crush in the high-peak.....
.....
One might say that some night workers might benefit from the 0430-0630
window being included in the Off-Peak cap, which is something I would
be sympathetic to if this was the case - but I'm far from sure that
that arguemnt stacks up... the reason being is, essentially people who
are travelling every day to work will either simply be paying single
Oyster PAYG fares (which are now cheaper pre-0630 on the Tube) or will
buy a period Travelcard, depending on which works out cheaper for them
- in other words regular (i.e. more or less daily) commuters simply
shouldn't be relying on daily capping for their normal journey,
because it will be more expensive for them.

Those working 2 or 3 days a week might well do this though?....why
should they lose out?

In message
,
Chris writes

Why can't they charge off-peak cap on travel prior to 0630, if no
further travel is done until after 0930 (and before or after the pm
peak)?

They do. See: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/oysteronline/9261.aspx

"If the total cost of your journeys is less than the peak cap, you will
be charged separately for any journeys taken during peak hours, plus the
off-peak cap."

--
Paul Terry