Went up to the sales on saturday. Coming back the piccadilly line was
fscked because of "a stalled train at cockfosters" whatever the hell
thats supposed to mean. Trains were all terminating at Arnos Grove
despite the fact theres a perfectly good crossover at Oakwood causing
trains to back up to finsbury park. As usual LU puts its own
convenience before that of its ripped off customers. Took hours to get
home and once there discovered that 2009 isn't an option on the
customer charter refund page. Tried it again - still not there. And if
you click on the contact us link it goes into an endless redirection
loop.

All that, a 6% fare rise and some militant ******* on strike in some
bus garage in Edgware today dliberately to muck up the journeys of
people on their first day back at work. Isn't public transport in
London just so wonderful?

I give up.

B2003

On Mon, 5 Jan 2009 02:24:00 -0800 (PST), wrote:

I give up.

Please do.

On Jan 5, 12:24*pm, James Farrar wrote:
On Mon, 5 Jan 2009 02:24:00 -0800 (PST), wrote:
I give up.

Please do.

Well actually I already have - I drive to work now even though I could
take the tube.

B2003

On Mon, 5 Jan 2009 04:43:25 -0800 (PST), wrote:

On Jan 5, 12:24*pm, James Farrar wrote:
On Mon, 5 Jan 2009 02:24:00 -0800 (PST), wrote:
I give up.

Please do.

Well actually I already have - I drive to work now even though I could
take the tube.

How about giving up the tube completely, and giving up moaning about
it?

On Jan 5, 2:03*pm, James Farrar wrote:
Well actually I already have - I drive to work now even though I could
take the tube.

How about giving up the tube completely, and giving up moaning about
it?

If it was free to use I wouldn't moan. It isn't free - it costs a
bloody fortune so I expect decent service not yet another random
selection from The LU Book Of Excuses. And if I can't have that I
expect to be able to apply for a refund - not be faced with a broken
website.

B2003

wrote:
On Jan 5, 2:03 pm, James Farrar wrote:
Well actually I already have - I drive to work now even though I could
take the tube.
How about giving up the tube completely, and giving up moaning about
it?

If it was free to use I wouldn't moan. It isn't free - it costs a
bloody fortune so I expect decent service not yet another random
selection from The LU Book Of Excuses. And if I can't have that I
expect to be able to apply for a refund - not be faced with a broken
website.

B2003

THINGSSSS CAN ONLY GET BETTERRRRRRR

On 5 Jan, 10:24, wrote:
Went up to the sales on saturday. Coming back the piccadilly line was
fscked because of "a stalled train at cockfosters" whatever the hell
thats supposed to mean. Trains were all terminating at Arnos Grove
despite the fact theres a perfectly good crossover at Oakwood causing
trains to back up to finsbury park. As usual LU puts its own
convenience before that of its ripped off customers. Took hours to get
home

Whilst I don't want to encourage Boltar's constant negativity about
everything, it is amazing how on the tube the minute one small thing
goes wrong, everything screws up totally.

Let's take a look at the above scenario. A train is stalled at
Cockfosters, right at the extreme end of the line. There's a turning
point at Arnos Grove. Why can't they just switch the signalling to
immediately turn all trains around at Arnos Grove, so the only
disruption is between Arnos Grove and Cockfosters? In this situation,
passengers south of Arnos Grove shouldn't have noticed a thing.

Compare this to the excellent action taken by First Great Western this
morning (I'm not making this up!) on my trip to Bristol. There was a
major signal failure between Swindon and Bristol. They immediately
rerouted my train to run via Bristol Parkway and we arrived at Bristol
on time. They managed it despite having to deal with intersecting
lines and having to find paths between other trains; why can't the
tube do it on a single line with no junctions when the disruption is
at an extreme end?

Patrick

On Jan 6, 10:57*am, Patrick Osborne wrote:
Whilst I don't want to encourage Boltar's constant negativity about
everything, it is amazing how on the tube the minute one small thing
goes wrong, everything screws up totally.

Let's take a look at the above scenario. *A train is stalled at
Cockfosters, right at the extreme end of the line. *There's a turning
point at Arnos Grove. *Why can't they just switch the signalling to
immediately turn all trains around at Arnos Grove, so the only
disruption is between Arnos Grove and Cockfosters? *In this situation,
passengers south of Arnos Grove shouldn't have noticed a thing.

1) the depot is at Cockfosters. Not sure what time this incident took
place, but if the train died in a place where it blocked or
significantly impaired depot access, then that's going to have an
obvious knock-on effect on the line

2) normal line operation is based on turning some trains at Arnos
(6ish) and some at Cockfosters (18ish). There are three reversing
platforms at Cockfosters; there is one at Arnos. If suddenly 24 trains
have to be reversed in the one platform, this is going to create some
fairly obvious bottlenecks.

Compare this to the excellent action taken by First Great Western this
morning (I'm not making this up!) on my trip to Bristol. *There was a
major signal failure between Swindon and Bristol. *They immediately
rerouted my train to run via Bristol Parkway and we arrived at Bristol
on time. *They managed it despite having to deal with intersecting
lines and having to find paths between other trains; why can't the
tube do it on a single line with no junctions when the disruption is
at an extreme end?

The excellent action will have been taken by Network Rail, although
FGW may have been involved in the planning process for What To Do If
There's A Failure.

Anyway... while junctions make life more complicated, they also
provide diversions and alternative routes. Whereas when you've got a
railway that's fundamentally two tracks with trains separated by only
a couple of minutes, any disruption is going to have instant and rapid
knock-ons - and the only way you can deal with that is to add
extremely expensive redundancy (in this case, adding signalling and
track work at Arnos so that it can be used as a full-capacity terminus
mirroring Cockfosters, or turning one of the stations north of Arnos
into an alternative reversing point - in either case, these will only
be useful for the few hours a month when access to Cockfosters has
completely failed).

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

In article
,
(Patrick Osborne) wrote:

Compare this to the excellent action taken by First Great Western this
morning (I'm not making this up!) on my trip to Bristol. There was a
major signal failure between Swindon and Bristol. They immediately
rerouted my train to run via Bristol Parkway and we arrived at Bristol
on time. They managed it despite having to deal with intersecting
lines and having to find paths between other trains; why can't the
tube do it on a single line with no junctions when the disruption is
at an extreme end?

Just as well you won't going to Bath!

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On Jan 6, 12:31*pm, John B wrote:
On Jan 6, 10:57*am, Patrick Osborne wrote:

Whilst I don't want to encourage Boltar's constant negativity about
everything, it is amazing how on the tube the minute one small thing
goes wrong, everything screws up totally.

Let's take a look at the above scenario. *A train is stalled at
Cockfosters, right at the extreme end of the line. *There's a turning
point at Arnos Grove. *Why can't they just switch the signalling to
immediately turn all trains around at Arnos Grove, so the only
disruption is between Arnos Grove and Cockfosters? *In this situation,
passengers south of Arnos Grove shouldn't have noticed a thing.

1) the depot is at Cockfosters. Not sure what time this incident took
place, but if the train died in a place where it blocked or
significantly impaired depot access, then that's going to have an
obvious knock-on effect on the line

2) normal line operation is based on turning some trains at Arnos
(6ish) and some at Cockfosters (18ish). There are three reversing
platforms at Cockfosters; there is one at Arnos. If suddenly 24 trains
have to be reversed in the one platform, this is going to create some
fairly obvious bottlenecks.

Compare this to the excellent action taken by First Great Western this
morning (I'm not making this up!) on my trip to Bristol. *There was a
major signal failure between Swindon and Bristol. *They immediately
rerouted my train to run via Bristol Parkway and we arrived at Bristol
on time. *They managed it despite having to deal with intersecting
lines and having to find paths between other trains; why can't the
tube do it on a single line with no junctions when the disruption is
at an extreme end?

The excellent action will have been taken by Network Rail, although
FGW may have been involved in the planning process for What To Do If
There's A Failure.

Anyway... while junctions make life more complicated, they also
provide diversions and alternative routes. Whereas when you've got a
railway that's fundamentally two tracks with trains separated by only
a couple of minutes, any disruption is going to have instant and rapid
knock-ons - and the only way you can deal with that is to add
extremely expensive redundancy (in this case, adding signalling and
track work at Arnos so that it can be used as a full-capacity terminus
mirroring Cockfosters, or turning one of the stations north of Arnos
into an alternative reversing point - in either case, these will only
be useful for the few hours a month when access to Cockfosters has
completely failed).


Trains can also be turned in Cockfosters depot from the Oakwood end.
Of course, this relies on there being staff at Oakwood, to check the
cars are empty before entering the depot. I do occasionally see an
Oakwood service on the line, especially when services are being
reduced at the end of the peaks or at the end of the day. Trains also
enter service from Oakwood at the start of service and at peak
periods.