On Jan 12, 4:11*pm, Mizter T wrote:
On 12 Jan, 14:03, "Michael R N Dolbear" wrote:





Mizter T wrote

On a slightly related note, the TfL fare finder appears to return
no fares for Richmond - Clapham Junction journeys.
I wonder what would be charged for an actual PAYG journey (via
Willesden Junction or Earls Court and West Brompton.)

The TfL Fare finder also returns no fares for Kew Gardens - CJ and
Gunnersbury - CJ.

I guess this is either a mistake, or a purposeful omission from the
public Fare finder to try and dissuade people from thinking Oyster
PAYG is valid on the SWT.

Actually I've just checked the Fare finder for a Wimbledon - CJ fare
(via District line and West Brompton) and it does return fares for
that journey, so I dare say the missing fares from Richmond/ Kew
Garden/ Gunnersbury is more likely to be in error.

So yeah, I also wonder how a real journey would be charged.
Essentially depends on whether or not the public Fare finder database
reflects the 'real' Oyster database.

Also, if such a journey was made who would get the money ? and would
SWT get it all next year ?

You raised a similar point in the "Oysterisation" thread so I've
addressed the broad point there.

Good question about what would happen in this situation. One presumes
that a Richmond or Wimbledon to Clapham Jn journey would have to be
charged according to the higher fare NR scale (when using Oyster PAYG)
- though perhaps a very small portion of the money might go to LU
based on the idea that people do take wacky routes, especially ones
that appear on the Tube Map as opposed to ones that don't (and the
direct SWT line doesn't).

A further question would be how would a Richmond to Wimbledon journey
be charged (and resulting revenue distributed) - I can see that some
people would travel by District line all the way, though going by SWT
and changing at CJ would be a far better route. And changing at Putney
for East Putney would avoid going into zone 2 whatsoever.-

If the Putneys became an outerchange, it was raise the old question of
whether touching along the way can override the route assumed by
Oyster between the start and end points (if that was different). That
is, while adjusting to treat two journeys as one continuation, could
it then still use the data about the two journeys to know that the end
to end journey wasn't by a different route?

On 11 Jan, 18:40, Mr Thant
wrote:

On 11 Jan, 17:34, Paul Corfield wrote:

(snip)

There'd be no
point building it and having the station stuck across a dual carriageway
road (by the actual Arsenal itself).

I'd advise you don't look into where they're putting the Crossrail
station then.


Though the alignment of the Crossrail route was decided upon before
the Woolwich Crossrail station was even confirmed - I don't think
there was ever much chance of having the Crossrail route altered to
take it under the town centre. Should it have done? Well, a C/B
analysis would doubtless say no, though I suppose one could argue that
the only way one could ensure Woolwich properly benefited from
Crossrail is to have a station right in the town centre.

AIUI a bit of the idea of the Crossrail station is that it'll boost
the regeneration of the old Arsenal site itself. The majority of
commuters who will be changing off the North Kent line onto Crossrail
will be doing so at Abbey Wood.

On 12 Jan, 16:32, MIG wrote:

On Jan 12, 4:11*pm, Mizter T wrote:

On 12 Jan, 14:03, "Michael R N Dolbear" wrote:

(questions of Richmond - CJ journeys plus permutations snipped)

Also, if such a journey was made who would get the money ? and would
SWT get it all next year ?

You raised a similar point in the "Oysterisation" thread so I've
addressed the broad point there.

Good question about what would happen in this situation. One presumes
that a Richmond or Wimbledon to Clapham Jn journey would have to be
charged according to the higher fare NR scale (when using Oyster PAYG)
- though perhaps a very small portion of the money might go to LU
based on the idea that people do take wacky routes, especially ones
that appear on the Tube Map as opposed to ones that don't (and the
direct SWT line doesn't).

A further question would be how would a Richmond to Wimbledon journey
be charged (and resulting revenue distributed) - I can see that some
people would travel by District line all the way, though going by SWT
and changing at CJ would be a far better route. And changing at Putney
for East Putney would avoid going into zone 2 whatsoever.-

If the Putneys became an outerchange, it was raise the old question of
whether touching along the way can override the route assumed by
Oyster between the start and end points (if that was different). *That
is, while adjusting to treat two journeys as one continuation, could
it then still use the data about the two journeys to know that the end
to end journey wasn't by a different route?


Indeed - a very good question that.

In fact I took a slightly nutty journey last year which ended up
testing something along these lines out - I was actually accompanying
some friends part of their way home but it also provided a chance to
experiment. I don't think I've mentioned this before on here, so it
obviously only got as far as the virtual and ever-growing 'to post on
utl' pile! On with the story...

I entered at Queen's Park and went up to Willesden Jn before taking
the NLL all the way to Hackney Central (friends alighting en-route).
From Hackney Central I left the station, touching-out on the way, and
walked to Hackney Downs station where I then touched in - bear in mind
that these two Hackney stations are a valid 'outerchange' (aka OOSI) -
then I caught a train as far as Bethnal Green, alighted and touched-
out on exiting the station.

I expected to be charged for a single zone 2 journey - the transfer in
Hackney confirming my route - but I was charged for a zone 1&2
journey. Looking at the Fare finder the fares from Kensal Green,
Queen's Park and points south thereof all the fares are presumed to
take a route via central London and zone 1. In and of itself, that's
fare enough, but given that I has specifically taken a route which
didn't go through zone 1 - and the Hackney outerchange proved as much
- I was, and indeed still am, a little quizzical about this.

I understand the theory is that all origination and destination
stations (i.e. pairs of stations) have a fare set for journeys between
them. The basic question, as you say, is whether that can be
overridden according to things that happen en-route - i.e.
outerchanges passed through.

This whole subject probably deserves a thread of its own on utl, so
perhaps I'll start one in the near future - there's enough other stuff
going on now to deal with (for my pea brained head at least!).

In message
Mizter T wrote:

[snip]

I actually suspect that their omission from the Fare finder is just a
simple mistake - it would seem to be the most likely explanation.

Cock-up rather than conspiracy is usually a good assumption. Not so much fun
though...

--
Graeme Wall
This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
Transport Miscellany at http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html

On Mon, 12 Jan 2009 09:21:06 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:

On 12 Jan, 16:32, MIG wrote:

If the Putneys became an outerchange, it was raise the old question of
whether touching along the way can override the route assumed by
Oyster between the start and end points (if that was different). *That
is, while adjusting to treat two journeys as one continuation, could
it then still use the data about the two journeys to know that the end
to end journey wasn't by a different route?


Indeed - a very good question that.

[snip]

I understand the theory is that all origination and destination
stations (i.e. pairs of stations) have a fare set for journeys between
them. The basic question, as you say, is whether that can be
overridden according to things that happen en-route - i.e.
outerchanges passed through.

This whole subject probably deserves a thread of its own on utl, so
perhaps I'll start one in the near future - there's enough other stuff
going on now to deal with (for my pea brained head at least!).

Oyster can only deal with one PAYG fare between an origin and
destination at present. There is a further project underway to support
extension of PAYG to NR which will introduce the concept of intermediate
validation to confirm a route and also for more than one rate between
origin and destination pairs to be held. The last I heard was that
LUL would be using intermediate validation to allow people to travel via
non Z1 routes and for them to benefit from that - provided they validate
at the designated intermediate point (almost certainly the natural or
logical interchange route - e.g. Rayners Lane station for some west
London trips by tube). There is not yet sufficient clarity as to
whether the train companies will use the intermediate validation concept
(or more accurately I haven't read anything definitive about it).

One other aspect of the project is that leaving the LU system (e.g. at a
NR terminal station like Victoria) and then entering the NR side would
automatically extend permissible journey times to reflect the fact that
many more trips (valid via PAYG) will take longer than the 2 hour
journey time "cap".

--
Paul C

On Mon, 12 Jan 2009 05:57:42 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:


On 12 Jan, 12:29, Martin Petrov wrote:

On 12 Jan, 08:33, Mwmbwls wrote:

Was it well loaded on its first real working day?

A Woolwich dwelling, Canary Wharf working mate texted me this morning
saying "tipped up at 8:30. found Trams were going only as far as
Blackwall - nothing as far as Poplar for at least the next 4 trains.
getting on the bus to N Greenwich".

I have been bleating on about this extension to him for ages, too. Bah.

It's (very) early days - it will calm down.

The other really obvious point that has just come to me is that there
may be more trains to Poplar or Canary Wharf from Canning Town - which
would mean one wouldn't actually have to walk from Blackwall after all.

If you look at the latest DLR timetable sheet you will see some of the
peak service only runs as far as Blackwall. Still as you say it is not
necessarily the end of the world to get off there - you can walk or get
a 277 bus on to the Wharf.

--
Paul C