[posted to both uk.transport.london and uk.railway]

[My take on the usefulness of this link for North Kent line to Canary
Wharf commuters is in the latter half of this post under the bracketed
header that highlights where this bit of my spiel begins!]


DLR webpage on "service change from 10 January":
http://pressroom.dlr.co.uk/news/details.asp?id=188


The DLR extension from King George V under the Thames to Woolwich
Arsenal is set to open this Saturday, the 10th of January, well over a
month before the contracted date of 28 February [1]. Public service
would appear to commence at the normal start of play in the early
morning on Saturday.

Journey Planner says the first train to call there seems to enter
service at Canning Town, calls at King George V at 05:17, traverses
the new tunnel and arrives at Woolwich Arsenal at 05:21, and after a
quick call there will then apparently leave the new station that very
same minute (05:21) and will head back under the river towards Bank.

Note however that Journey Planner gives the first journey through the
tunnel (from north to south) as taking 4 minutes, and the journey back
as taking 7 minutes, so from that I guess one can assume that the
first train won't actually be expected to depart the very same minute
it arrives!

Anyway, I won't be there, but for anyone who is, enjoy, you crazy
people! I imagine that if the attendance of dignitaries is on the
cards - Mayor of LB Greenwich, leader of the council, Commissioner
Hendy, perhaps even Bozza etc - it won't be until a more gentlemanly
hour ;-)


I expect that the lift attendants at the Woolwich Foot Tunnel will be
more bored as they witness a significant drop in foot fall through the
tunnel, and likewise pedestrians using the Woolwich Free Ferry will
also decrease. That said, the tunnel and ferry are free and the DLR
will not be - plus for people who are intending to travel onwards on
the DLR, a few pennies could be saved by heading north on foot to King
George V as its in zone 3 whilst Woolwich Arsenal is in zone 4, though
I absolutely acknowledge this is only ever likely to be a minority
sport!).


[*Usefulness for North Kent line to Canary Wharf commuters*]

Of course the new DLR link will obviously provide a very useful
interchange with the North Kent line for people heading to the
Docklands. However there wouldn't appear to be an appreciable
difference to journey times for those heading to the big Docklands
traffic destination of Canary Wharf - from Woolwich Arsenal, the JP
gives a 20-22 min journey to CW via Canning Town and a change on to
the Jubilee line (though this is a very easy interchange).

Meanwhile journey time from Woolwich Arsenal to Greenwich on the North
Kent line is 13 minutes, then a pretty easy change there on to the DLR
with a journey time of 11 or 12 minutes on to CW (so a total of 24/25
mins). Of course any journey with an interchange adds time, especially
if the connection ain't great (though the DLR does run a turn up and
go service, esp. during the peaks). So when I ask JP for a journey
from Woolwich Arsenal to CW *via* Greenwich then it gives a journey
time of between 27-29 minutes.

Time wise I wonder if Canary Wharf bound commuters coming from points
east will find changing at Woolwich Arsenal worthwhile, especially as
that route involves a further change to the Jubbly at Canning Town. Of
course there are other factors to consider - the DLR from Woolwich
will presumably be less busy than the DLR from Greenwich (it'll
obviously start out that way of course), and I suppose one would be
bailing off an increasingly crowded North Kent line train as it heads
into central London. But then one would have to get on a rammed
Jubilee line train at Canning Town for two stops to get to the Wharf.

The other option of course is to avoid the Jubilee line altogether and
go a
ll the way from Woolwich Arsenal to Canary Wharf on the DLR, changing
once en-route at Canning Town or Poplar - I've just asked the Journey
Planner for times for a DLR-only journey and it gives 30 minutes,
*but* quite unexpectedly it sends you via Westferry and a change onto
a CW bound train there! Someone wanting to do that journey would
actually be *far far* better off getting off at Poplar and walking to
CW - the Wharf is literally round the corner from Poplar station, one
simply needs to walk over the footbridge over Aspen Way, then a *very*
short distance down the main road to the junction with Upper Bank
Street, then simply cross the bridge over the Dock and voila you're
there.

And that's the one actually - a Woolwich Arsenal to Poplar journey
takes just *20 minutes* according to JP, so CW-bound commuters coming
off the North Kent line who want a better journey should choose this
route, no doubt about it. The very short walk will do them good too!

Of course Canary Wharf isn't the Docklands, and Woolwich Arsenal was
certainly not built simply to make life easier for North Kent line to
CW commuters, it's about much much more than that. But if anyone now
comes along and says that it's pointless and offers no benefit for the
Wharf commuter contingent, you can tell them where to get off -
Woolwich Arsenal and then Poplar, to be precise!


-----
[1] According to the London Reconnections weblog:
http://londonreconnections.blogspot....and-early.html

"Mizter T" wrote

Of course the new DLR link will obviously provide a very useful
interchange with the North Kent line for people heading to the
Docklands. However there wouldn't appear to be an appreciable
difference to journey times for those heading to the big Docklands
traffic destination of Canary Wharf - from Woolwich Arsenal, the JP
gives a 20-22 min journey to CW via Canning Town and a change on to
the Jubilee line (though this is a very easy interchange).

Meanwhile journey time from Woolwich Arsenal to Greenwich on the North
Kent line is 13 minutes, then a pretty easy change there on to the DLR
with a journey time of 11 or 12 minutes on to CW (so a total of 24/25
mins). Of course any journey with an interchange adds time, especially
if the connection ain't great (though the DLR does run a turn up and
go service, esp. during the peaks). So when I ask JP for a journey
from Woolwich Arsenal to CW *via* Greenwich then it gives a journey
time of between 27-29 minutes.

It could be particularly useful for passengers originating from east of
Dartford - their morning peak trains tend to call only at Abbey Wood between
Dartford and Woolwich Arsenal, and then run via Blackheath, so they will
save quite a bit of time by changing to DLR at Woolwich Arsenal (whether
they get to Canary Wharf by changing to Jubilee Line at Canning Town, or via
Poplar and a short walk).

From Chatham it's probably quicker to take a fast train to London Bridge,
and Jubilee Line from there, though this involves Zone 1 fares.

Come December 2009 a further choice, from Medway, Gravesend, and Ebbsfleet,
will be HS1 to Stratford International, though the interchange to Stratford
Regional for the Jubilee Line or DLR won't be brilliant, especially until
DLR gets to Stratford International.

Peter

On Jan 8, 6:33*pm, "Peter Masson" wrote:
"Mizter T" wrote





Of course the new DLR link will obviously provide a very useful
interchange with the North Kent line for people heading to the
Docklands. However there wouldn't appear to be an appreciable
difference to journey times for those heading to the big Docklands
traffic destination of Canary Wharf - from Woolwich Arsenal, the JP
gives a 20-22 min journey to CW via Canning Town and a change on to
the Jubilee line (though this is a very easy interchange).

Meanwhile journey time from Woolwich Arsenal to Greenwich on the North
Kent line is 13 minutes, then a pretty easy change there on to the DLR
with a journey time of 11 or 12 minutes on to CW (so a total of 24/25
mins). Of course any journey with an interchange adds time, especially
if the connection ain't great (though the DLR does run a turn up and
go service, esp. during the peaks). So when I ask JP for a journey
from Woolwich Arsenal to CW *via* Greenwich then it gives a journey
time of between 27-29 minutes.

It could be particularly useful for passengers originating from east of
Dartford - their morning peak trains tend to call only at Abbey Wood between
Dartford and Woolwich Arsenal, and then run via Blackheath, so they will
save quite a bit of time by changing to DLR at Woolwich Arsenal (whether
they get to Canary Wharf by changing to Jubilee Line at Canning Town, or via
Poplar and a short walk).

Add to that the fact that peak services from Woolwich tend not to stop
at Lewisham: the alternative connection to the DLR (one recently
started doing so at 0818). But it probably wasn't too bad to change
at Abbey Wood to a following Greenwich line service (before it got too
crowded).

On the Poplar thing, I still wonder, if the journey planner had
existed in the early 1970s, whether it would have advised people to go
from Strand to Trafalgar Square via Charing Cross (now Embankment).

mind wanders off on tangent

I just put in Kings Cross to Regents Park, and it didn't suggest
changing at Baker Street (good), but it gave me options of bus all the
way, LU to Great Portland Street and then bus (supposedly taking eight
minutes, but I'm sure I could walk it in one) or walk the whole way.

But bizarrely not LU to GPS and walk, even though it's happy to
suggest walking all the way.

On 8 Jan, 18:33, "Peter Masson" wrote:

"Mizter T" wrote

Of course the new DLR link will obviously provide a very useful
interchange with the North Kent line for people heading to the
Docklands. However there wouldn't appear to be an appreciable
difference to journey times for those heading to the big Docklands
traffic destination of Canary Wharf - from Woolwich Arsenal, the JP
gives a 20-22 min journey to CW via Canning Town and a change on to
the Jubilee line (though this is a very easy interchange).

Meanwhile journey time from Woolwich Arsenal to Greenwich on the North
Kent line is 13 minutes, then a pretty easy change there on to the DLR
with a journey time of 11 or 12 minutes on to CW (so a total of 24/25
mins). Of course any journey with an interchange adds time, especially
if the connection ain't great (though the DLR does run a turn up and
go service, esp. during the peaks). So when I ask JP for a journey
from Woolwich Arsenal to CW *via* Greenwich then it gives a journey
time of between 27-29 minutes.


Thanks for humouring me by wading through my somewhat epic post - it
started out being a short reminder of the upcoming opening, then it
gradually got longer as I investigated and discovered the various
different travel options as I wrote it! I guess I was really just
trying to pre-empt some of the potential criticism that I thought
could be levelled against this new link, indeed I think such criticism
has already been aired.

Anyway my reckoning is that the via Poplar route is quite neat, but I
forgot to factor in one thing - once everything settles down on the
DLR I can quite imagine new timetables will restore the very useful
synchronised train arrivals at Poplar that enabled really easy cross-
platform interchanges to be carried out there, hence pax could well
end up with an easy change there that would deliver them right in to
Canary Wharf DLR station.


It could be particularly useful for passengers originating from east of
Dartford - their morning peak trains tend to call only at Abbey Wood between
Dartford and Woolwich Arsenal, and then run via Blackheath, so they will
save quite a bit of time by changing to DLR at Woolwich Arsenal (whether
they get to Canary Wharf by changing to Jubilee Line at Canning Town, or via
Poplar and a short walk).


Yes, that makes it even more useful.


From Chatham it's probably quicker to take a fast train to London Bridge,
and Jubilee Line from there, though this involves Zone 1 fares.

Come December 2009 a further choice, from Medway, Gravesend, and Ebbsfleet,
will be HS1 to Stratford International, though the interchange to Stratford
Regional for the Jubilee Line or DLR won't be brilliant, especially until
DLR gets to Stratford International.


Good point. I was about to say something along the lines of whether
the Jubilee line (linking Stratford to Canary Wharf) will be able to
cope is another matter, as the growth in traffic on the line
(including the eastern end) has been immense - but then I remembered
that capacity-increasing ATO on the Jubbly is supposed to go live in
December 2009 too (it's almost as if there's a masterplan!).

I have to say I'm a little quizzical about how things will work when
the Kent high-speed trains start stopping (IYSWIM!) at Stratford -
will half a full-length train load of people get off and then try and
get on a DLR train? I suppose that might just about work - I'm
presuming that the peak CTRL-DS trains will (eventually) be formed of
two class 395 train sets each at 6 cars long (is this right?), and the
DLR trains will effectively be 6 (shorter) carriages too (i.e. three
vehicles).

Of course these trains won't run direct to Canary Wharf anyway, so I
wonder how long it will take to walk between Stratford Int'l and
Regional and thus how many people will forget about the DLR and use
shank's pony. We shall see...

On Thu, 8 Jan 2009 10:05:08 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:

[posted to both uk.transport.london and uk.railway]

[My take on the usefulness of this link for North Kent line to Canary
Wharf commuters is in the latter half of this post under the bracketed
header that highlights where this bit of my spiel begins!]


DLR webpage on "service change from 10 January":
http://pressroom.dlr.co.uk/news/details.asp?id=188


The DLR extension from King George V under the Thames to Woolwich
Arsenal is set to open this Saturday, the 10th of January, well over a
month before the contracted date of 28 February [1]. Public service
would appear to commence at the normal start of play in the early
morning on Saturday.

I'm amazed this is just on the DLR Press page and not the TfL Press
Release list. Still nice to know that it looks like the service is
starting then. It was rumoured that passenger service might not start
until Monday even though the underlying timetable had changed.

[*Usefulness for North Kent line to Canary Wharf commuters*]

Of course the new DLR link will obviously provide a very useful
interchange with the North Kent line for people heading to the
Docklands. However there wouldn't appear to be an appreciable
difference to journey times for those heading to the big Docklands
traffic destination of Canary Wharf - from Woolwich Arsenal, the JP
gives a 20-22 min journey to CW via Canning Town and a change on to
the Jubilee line (though this is a very easy interchange).

The other factor is that if people swap permanently to changing at
Woolwich for Docklands they can reduce the number of zones they require
on their Travelcard. Losing Zone 1 is a decent drop in price (assuming
there's no other regular reason to travel there).

--
Paul C

On Jan 8, 8:08*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Thu, 8 Jan 2009 10:05:08 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:





[posted to both uk.transport.london and uk.railway]

[My take on the usefulness of this link for North Kent line to Canary
Wharf commuters is in the latter half of this post under the bracketed
header that highlights where this bit of my spiel begins!]

DLR webpage on "service change from 10 January":
http://pressroom.dlr.co.uk/news/details.asp?id=188

The DLR extension from King George V under the Thames to Woolwich
Arsenal is set to open this Saturday, the 10th of January, well over a
month before the contracted date of 28 February [1]. Public service
would appear to commence at the normal start of play in the early
morning on Saturday.

I'm amazed this is just on the DLR Press page and not the TfL Press
Release list. *Still nice to know that it looks like the service is
starting then. *It was rumoured that passenger service might not start
until Monday even though the underlying timetable had changed.

Didn't the King George officially start on a Monday but actually on a
Saturday? Certainly it was running before the official start.


[*Usefulness for North Kent line to Canary Wharf commuters*]

Of course the new DLR link will obviously provide a very useful
interchange with the North Kent line for people heading to the
Docklands. However there wouldn't appear to be an appreciable
difference to journey times for those heading to the big Docklands
traffic destination of Canary Wharf - from Woolwich Arsenal, the JP
gives a 20-22 min journey to CW via Canning Town and a change on to
the Jubilee line (though this is a very easy interchange).

The other factor is that if people swap permanently to changing at
Woolwich for Docklands they can reduce the number of zones they require
on their Travelcard. Losing Zone 1 is a decent drop in price (assuming
there's no other regular reason to travel there).

I don't think you'd have needed zone 1 if changing and Greenwich, and
would still need zone 2.

I thought I remembered seeing somewhere that a direct service from
Woolwich Arsenal to Canary Wharf was planned. However I can't find any
reference to this on the Transport for London web site.

Maybe this will only be possible once the Delta Junction works are
completed? On the TfL web site for this project, it says that the new
junction will "Allow DLR to introduce new services in the future".

Anybody else heard anything about this?

Thanks

Spot on, sir!

DLR continues the time-honoured tradition of opening well-ahead of
contractual dates.

Expectation locally is that some Wharfies will choose Southeastern
-WA-Poplar, particularly those working on the North side of the Wharf,
in or near Barclays, Bank of America and HSBC, all of which are as near
to Poplar as to either Jubble or DLR stations at CW.

Also some Waitrose staff I know are really looking forward to this as a
way to avoid getting cold and wet waiting for the Ferry.

Other target customers are of course LCY users. One regular "flymuter"
[his word, NOT mine] has already translated the new DLR extension as "a
second cup of coffee before leaving home" on his regular trips to CDG.

Personally, this is a way to avoid the dreaded 422/472 crawl from
Woolwich to N Greenwich [en route to Bermondsey] - at least until [if?]
we get the Transit, which despite the ill-informed comments from Andrew
Gilligan will deliver very real benefits to people living in Woolwich,
Plumstead and West Thamesmead / Gallions.

Remind me, which Mayoral candidate said in last year's election
campaign that he wanted to improve public transport in suburban London?

I'll report back on the actuals tomorrow.

Ken

== SNIPPED & SNIPPED AGAIN

On 2009-01-08 18:05:08 +0000, Mizter T said:


The DLR extension from King George V under the Thames to Woolwich
Arsenal is set to open this Saturday, the 10th of January, well over a
month before the contracted date of 28 February [1]. Public service
would appear to commence at the normal start of play in the early
morning on Saturday.



The other option of course is to avoid the Jubilee line altogether and
go all the way from Woolwich Arsenal to Canary Wharf on the DLR, changing
once en-route at Canning Town or Poplar - I've just asked the Journey
Planner for times for a DLR-only journey and it gives 30 minutes,
*but* quite unexpectedly it sends you via Westferry and a change onto
a CW bound train there! Someone wanting to do that journey would
actually be *far far* better off getting off at Poplar and walking to
CW - the Wharf is literally round the corner from Poplar station, one
simply needs to walk over the footbridge over Aspen Way, then a *very*
short distance down the main road to the junction with Upper Bank
Street, then simply cross the bridge over the Dock and voila you're
there.

And that's the one actually - a Woolwich Arsenal to Poplar journey
takes just *20 minutes* according to JP, so CW-bound commuters coming
off the North Kent line who want a better journey should choose this
route, no doubt about it. The very short walk will do them good too!

Of course Canary Wharf isn't the Docklands, and Woolwich Arsenal was
certainly not built simply to make life easier for North Kent line to
CW commuters, it's about much much more than that. But if anyone now
comes along and says that it's pointless and offers no benefit for the
Wharf commuter contingent, you can tell them where to get off -
Woolwich Arsenal and then Poplar, to be precise!


--
Writer / editor on London's River

On Thu, 8 Jan 2009 12:32:45 -0800 (PST), MIG
wrote:

On Jan 8, 8:08*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Thu, 8 Jan 2009 10:05:08 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:

DLR webpage on "service change from 10 January":
http://pressroom.dlr.co.uk/news/details.asp?id=188

The DLR extension from King George V under the Thames to Woolwich
Arsenal is set to open this Saturday, the 10th of January, well over a
month before the contracted date of 28 February [1]. Public service
would appear to commence at the normal start of play in the early
morning on Saturday.

I'm amazed this is just on the DLR Press page and not the TfL Press
Release list. *Still nice to know that it looks like the service is
starting then. *It was rumoured that passenger service might not start
until Monday even though the underlying timetable had changed.

Didn't the King George officially start on a Monday but actually on a
Saturday? Certainly it was running before the official start.

I think so but I recall it was formally announced on the main TfL site.
I hadn't even appreciated DLR ran their own separate press set up until
I clicked on the link Mizter T provided. Shows how much attention I pay
to the TfL media page!

[*Usefulness for North Kent line to Canary Wharf commuters*]

Of course the new DLR link will obviously provide a very useful
interchange with the North Kent line for people heading to the
Docklands. However there wouldn't appear to be an appreciable
difference to journey times for those heading to the big Docklands
traffic destination of Canary Wharf - from Woolwich Arsenal, the JP
gives a 20-22 min journey to CW via Canning Town and a change on to
the Jubilee line (though this is a very easy interchange).

The other factor is that if people swap permanently to changing at
Woolwich for Docklands they can reduce the number of zones they require
on their Travelcard. Losing Zone 1 is a decent drop in price (assuming
there's no other regular reason to travel there).

I don't think you'd have needed zone 1 if changing and Greenwich, and
would still need zone 2.

My comment was based solely on the assumption that North Kent line
passengers decide to divert via Woolwich and DLR rather than continue
into town and back track from London Bridge via the tube. Of course
there has been the option of going via Greenwich or Lewisham but that
link does get horrendously overcrowded in the peaks. In the short term
(probably only a few weeks!) I suspect Woolwich may be a more relaxed
option for some people.

Still I am sure I'll toddle along at some point tomorrow to take a look.
Shame the Jubilee Line is closed Stratford - Green Park for the whole
weekend as that makes access from East London rather a slog. I feel a
long ride on a 69 bus coming on.

--
Paul C

Mizter T wrote:


The DLR extension from King George V under the Thames to Woolwich
Arsenal is set to open this Saturday, the 10th of January, well over a

So, did it?

--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK