On 14 Jan, 20:18, (Neil Williams)
wrote:

On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 17:30:27 +0000, Paul Corfield

wrote:
Don't mention premium fares - it'll become policy before you know it.

Premium fares have their purpose onexpressbusroutes. In Germany,
Schnellbusse are usually used to operate direct services with
higher-quality seating from suburbs to city centres, where there is
normally[1] an equivalent localbusservice to the nearest station.
In the UK, by contrast,busroutes tend to penetrate the city centre
anyway, so that concept doesn't quite fit. In the German model, the
premium fare essentially acts to reduce demand while at the same time
representing the extra value of a direct, well-specified service.

In London, OTOH, these routes are being proposed to plug gaps in the
rail network (I know you don't agree, but orbital services are
generally a very big gap in the rail network). This doesn't seem to
suggest that a premium fare would be sensible.


Two things to say here. Firstly, you speak confidently of what is
being proposed in London - please do tell me where I can find out even
some bare-bones outlines of the these purported proposals, because I
don't know about them. Boris said a number of vague things during the
election campaign, but since then there hasn't been a big push on
moving forward with express bus routes, nor has it really been spoken
about. AFAICS the idea isn't even mentioned in the 'Way to Go'
document which is a precursor of the Mayor's upcoming Transport
Strategy, which is a kind of informal consultation document. So I
can't see how anyone can say what holes these routes are being
proposed to plug, because there aren't really any proposals, at least
not yet. How much of an emphasis the Transport Strategy places on
express bus routes is yet to be seen.

Secondly, I don't actually think Paul was in fact saying that he
doesn't rate the concept of orbital services - perhaps more that the
emphasis shouldn't be on filling holes in the rail network. Personally
I think there is a tendency for some to look at a rail map and look
for obvious holes, but I think that can bit a bit of a false approach
- I'd want to look for the areas which there is a demand for travel
between, or at least a pent up demand, and I don't think these
necessarily coincide with gaps in the rail network. I'd be looking for
corridors where perhaps there's heavy road traffic, or fast roads
lying under or unutilised by bus routes, or heavily loaded stopping
routes with many passengers making long trips, or underdeveloped,
needy or hard-to-get-to areas, or those with a paucity of transport
links - that's where I'd look at putting express bus routes. By all
means serve railway stations, but linking up rail lines shouldn't be
the raison d'etre.


As for the X68, I must admit I don't really understand it - why
wouldn't passengers on it use the train, other than for the cheap
busfare?


It seems to be well patronised, which is always a good starting point
when assessing a service!

It also provides a direct service to/from the Bloomsbury, Holborn and
Aldwych 'corridor' (big employment areas of course) more or less
directly directly to/from points south. If you want to go by by train
between Holborn to West Norwood (first stop after the express bit from
Waterloo) then you have to rather fanny around a bit, to put it in the
vernacular. Trains to West Norwood go from Victoria - to the south
west of Holborn with no direct Tube link - or London Bridge - to the
south east, and across a river.

OK, one could go to Charing Cross and get a train from there on to
London Bridge and change, but it's a faff and this is rush hour. Also
NR journey planner has that taking around 40+ minutes - (ok, I grant
you that perhaps it's being a little over generous with the amount of
time needed to change at London Bridge). There's no direct Tube line
to London Bridge from this 'corridor' either.

The X68 meanwhile is timetabled to take 44 minutes from Southampton
Row (start of the route), 34 minutes from Aldwych, and 29 minutes from
Waterloo station (last stop before going express) to West Norwood
station - one seat all the way.

South of West Norwood the bus then stops at each bus stop on the route
of the 468 down to West Croydon. It actually serves some areas, such
as Beulah Hill/ Upper Norwood, that really aren't all that close to a
railway station at all.

Of course the price is a further attraction to - there's no premium,
it costs £1 like any other bus fare. But the very fact that an
alternative rail route would likely take at least as long, if not
longer, is obviously a very real attraction in and of itself. Then
there's the fact that one doesn't have to change, nor cram on a
crowded rush hour train, but instead have a seat all the way to work
and back home again.

I've went on the X68 once, just to try it out. I went on a southbound
journey in the rush hour and it was very civilised - it was very well
loaded but I think nearly everyone if not everyone actually got a
seat. I sat on the top deck near the front and watched as we
approached bus stops and saw that passengers had been quite
purposefully waiting for this particular bus. I specifically recall
the relaxed atmosphere on board as people settled in for their commute
home.

I don't know what the thinking is behind the X68 but I dare say it's
at least partially designed to relieve the 68 (which ends just south
of West Norwood station) and the 468 (which starts at the Elephant and
runs to South Croydon) of long distance passengers. But I think it
also works in it's own right, even if only at peak times (there's 12
northbound buses on the morning, 13 southbound in the evening). It
provides a direct link in a pretty straight line between a central
London area (one that also has no north/south Tube lines) and parts of
south London, in a way that the rail network simply doesn't.

I think that goes some way to explaining it!

On Thu, 15 Jan 2009 00:04:26 +0000, wrote:

Sounds like something designed for the Far Tottering and Oyster Creek
Railway . In practice things need to be simple and easy for staff
to use and cheap to implement. For a busy buffet car the best measure
is a pre packed one such as a can or bottle which can be handed to the
customer to pour themselves away from the counter if need be.

And good-quality beers and ciders are sold in bottles, though these
are rarely available in buffet cars - it's normally Tetley's, Carling
and Strongbow, which doesn't really sell it to me.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 16:03:10 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:

Two things to say here. Firstly, you speak confidently of what is
being proposed in London - please do tell me where I can find out even
some bare-bones outlines of the these purported proposals, because I
don't know about them.

Sorry, I'm perhaps being a bit confusing. I was just going on
comments earlier in the thread.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 16:03:10 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:

Of course the price is a further attraction to - there's no premium,
it costs =A31 like any other bus fare. But the very fact that an
alternative rail route would likely take at least as long, if not
longer, is obviously a very real attraction in and of itself. Then
there's the fact that one doesn't have to change, nor cram on a
crowded rush hour train, but instead have a seat all the way to work
and back home again.

These are certainly the kind of reasons that would cause it to have a
premium fare in Germany. Such a premium is usually a first class
fare, which is higher than the normal *through* rail and bus fare.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

On 15 Jan, 06:21, (Neil Williams)
wrote:

On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 16:03:10 -0800 (PST), Mizter T

wrote:
Two things to say here. Firstly, you speak confidently of what is
being proposed in London - please do tell me where I can find out even
some bare-bones outlines of the these purported proposals, because I
don't know about them.

Sorry, I'm perhaps being a bit confusing. *I was just going on
comments earlier in the thread.


And sorry if I came across as rather adversarial - that wasn't really
the intention!

I think we shall have to wait for the new Mayor's Transport Strategy
to know what his (and his team's) thinking is on the matter, as he
hasn't really provided even as much of a hint as to what it is thus
far, apart from his vague talk during the election campaign and then
the increase in frequency of the X26 from hourly to half-hourly.

On 15 Jan, 06:24, (Neil Williams)
wrote:

On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 16:03:10 -0800 (PST), Mizter T

wrote:
Of course the price is a further attraction to - there's no premium,
it costs £1 like any other bus fare. But the very fact that an
alternative rail route would likely take at least as long, if not
longer, is obviously a very real attraction in and of itself. Then
there's the fact that one doesn't have to change, nor cram on a
crowded rush hour train, but instead have a seat all the way to work
and back home again.

These are certainly the kind of reasons that would cause it to have a
premium fare in Germany. *Such a premium is usually a first class
fare, which is higher than the normal *through* rail and bus fare.


Really, wow. Well I can't imagine that would go down well at all on
the X68! It's just a normal double-decker bus, nothing fancy - not
really 'first class fare' territory!

A word of caution - perhaps I've painted too rosy a picture of it, I
only went on it once and I've never knowingly met anyone who commutes
on it. When I do seem it passing by it always seems well loaded though.

On 15 Jan, 06:20, (Neil Williams)
wrote:

On Thu, 15 Jan 2009 00:04:26 +0000, wrote:
Sounds like something designed for the Far Tottering and Oyster Creek
Railway . * In practice things need to be simple *and easy for staff
to use and cheap to implement. For a busy buffet car the best measure
is a pre packed one such as a can or bottle which can be handed to the
customer to pour themselves away from the counter if need be.

And good-quality beers and ciders are sold in bottles, though these
are rarely available in buffet cars - it's normally Tetley's, Carling
and Strongbow, which doesn't really sell it to me.


Ditto - but Heineken or Stella are often stocked as well are they not.
The former in it's newer continental formulation is actually quite
good IMO, and the latter, despite it's 'chavvy image' (for want of a
better term), is quite acceptable. I've had a few fairly good half-
bottles of wine as well. You pay through the nose for all these things
of course, but then again they're often something of an impulse
purchase.

Mizter T wrote:
On 15 Jan, 06:21, (Neil Williams)
wrote:

On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 16:03:10 -0800 (PST), Mizter T

wrote:
Two things to say here. Firstly, you speak confidently of what is
being proposed in London - please do tell me where I can find out
even some bare-bones outlines of the these purported proposals,
because I don't know about them.

Sorry, I'm perhaps being a bit confusing. I was just going on
comments earlier in the thread.


And sorry if I came across as rather adversarial - that wasn't really
the intention!

I think we shall have to wait for the new Mayor's Transport Strategy
to know what his (and his team's) thinking is on the matter, as he
hasn't really provided even as much of a hint as to what it is thus
far, apart from his vague talk during the election campaign and then
the increase in frequency of the X26 from hourly to half-hourly.

I'm not sure whether this is the West London Transport Strategy which has
been bubbling away for a decade or so.
http://www.geocities.com/athens/acro...la_w.html#WLTS

John Rowland wrote:

Mizter T wrote:

On 15 Jan, 06:21, (Neil Williams)
wrote:

On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 16:03:10 -0800 (PST), Mizter T

wrote:
Two things to say here. Firstly, you speak confidently of what is
being proposed in London - please do tell me where I can find out
even some bare-bones outlines of the these purported proposals,
because I don't know about them.

Sorry, I'm perhaps being a bit confusing. I was just going on
comments earlier in the thread.


And sorry if I came across as rather adversarial - that wasn't really
the intention!

I think we shall have to wait for the new Mayor's Transport Strategy
to know what his (and his team's) thinking is on the matter, as he
hasn't really provided even as much of a hint as to what it is thus
far, apart from his vague talk during the election campaign and then
the increase in frequency of the X26 from hourly to half-hourly.

I'm not sure whether this is the West London Transport Strategy which has
been bubbling away for a decade or so.
http://www.geocities.com/athens/acro...la_w.html#WLTS


For just a moment there I thought you were joking that the once a week
Ealing via Kensington to Wandsworth Rd 'ghost bus' (the original topic
of this thread!) formed the basis of the West London Transport
Strategy!

Jokes aside, that's most interesting. I don't think there really have
been any official pronouncements from the Mayor or TfL on this issue,
and thus far going by what has been said, or rather the lack of what's
been said, it's difficult to get much of a grasp on what any upcoming
plans might involve. But the WLTS does serve as a reminder that there
are a whole host of proposals and initiatives out there, some of which
have been well researched and developed over a number of years. It's
an obvious point, but I'll make it anyway - tapping into some of these
longstanding plans could at least help to form part of the basis of
some of the future transport policies, such as that concerning express
bus routes.

I note the West London Transport Strategy is alive and well, having
been updated in 2005 - it is a 'key programme' of the West London
Alliance, which is a joint initiative of six London Boroughs that
exists to promote West London. See:
http://www.westlondonalliance.org/Page/Transport
http://www.westlondonalliance.org/Page/AboutWLA

The WLTS is similar to other partnership bodies such as Seltrans and
SWELTRAC, except that it resides within the West London Alliance
rather than existing as a specialist transport concern on its own
right as the latter two bodies do.
http://www.seltrans.co.uk/
http://www.sweltrac.org.uk/

On Thu, 15 Jan 2009 02:15:46 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:

Really, wow. Well I can't imagine that would go down well at all on
the X68! It's just a normal double-decker bus, nothing fancy - not
really 'first class fare' territory!

The Hamburg ones use coach seats, or in some cases actually are
coaches. Legroom is very generous.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.