"Tom Anderson" wrote :
And why would you think that, eh? Clearly, you're trying to make me think
that i'm surrounded by paranoids, aren't you? AREN'T YOU?

Well, we are surrounded by paranoids, aren't we? AREN'T WE?

Andrew Heenan wrote:
"Tom Anderson" wrote :
And why would you think that, eh? Clearly, you're trying to make me think
that i'm surrounded by paranoids, aren't you? AREN'T YOU?

Well, we are surrounded by paranoids, aren't we? AREN'T WE?



That's what they *want* you to think...

Tom

On Tue, Feb 03, 2009 at 03:38:45PM -0000, Andrew Heenan wrote:

much slower buses (imagine the 38/73 congestion
at Angel every morning as drivers have to look at every ticket).

I assume that they wouldn't. Just like they don't have to look at every
single paper ticket now. They certainly never look at mine, because it
stays in my pocket. They never look at those that people buy at the
roadside ticket machines either, unless the passenger is an ignorant
tourist who insists on getting on at the front doors and showing the
driver the ticket.

Enforcement would be, just like today, done by bands of roving
inspectors.

--
David Cantrell | A machine for turning tea into grumpiness

" In My Egotistical Opinion, most people's ... programs should be
indented six feet downward and covered with dirt. "
--Blair P. Houghton

On 5 Feb, 12:02, David Cantrell wrote:
On Tue, Feb 03, 2009 at 03:38:45PM -0000, Andrew Heenan wrote:
* * * * * * * * * * * * much slower buses (imagine the 38/73 congestion
at Angel every morning as drivers have to look at every ticket).

I assume that they wouldn't. *Just like they don't have to look at every
single paper ticket now. *They certainly never look at mine, because it
stays in my pocket. *They never look at those that people buy at the
roadside ticket machines either, unless the passenger is an ignorant
tourist who insists on getting on at the front doors and showing the
driver the ticket.

Enforcement would be, just like today, done by bands of roving
inspectors.


I think you may be assuming wrong - you qthe beginning of Andrew's
paragraph read: "And, like the bendies, the advantages of Oyster would
only be visible after it was banned [...]". The future

On 5 Feb, 12:15, Mizter T wrote:

On 5 Feb, 12:02, David Cantrell wrote:

On Tue, Feb 03, 2009 at 03:38:45PM -0000, Andrew Heenan wrote:
* * * * * * * * * * * * much slower buses (imagine the 38/73 congestion
at Angel every morning as drivers have to look at every ticket).

I assume that they wouldn't. *Just like they don't have to look at every
single paper ticket now. *They certainly never look at mine, because it
stays in my pocket. *They never look at those that people buy at the
roadside ticket machines either, unless the passenger is an ignorant
tourist who insists on getting on at the front doors and showing the
driver the ticket.

Enforcement would be, just like today, done by bands of roving
inspectors.

I think you may be assuming wrong - you qthe beginning of Andrew's
paragraph read: "And, like the bendies, the advantages of Oyster would
only be visible after it was banned [...]". The future


Argh, that's the nth time that I've managed to submit a post before
I'd finished composing it lately - butter finger-o-rama. Apologies -
let me start again...

I think you may be assuming wrong - you quoted the end of Andrew's
paragraph, teh beginning of which read: "And, like the bendies, the
advantages of Oyster would only be visible after it was banned [...]".

The more immediate future holds bendy buses being replaced by standard
double-deckers that operate under the conventional arrangement whereby
passengers enter via the front door and have their tickets checked as
they pass by the driver. I think the replacement double-deckers for
the 'Red Arrow' services (routes 507 and 521) are possibly to offer
either door boarding, but these are quite specialist routes (weekday
only linking central London termini).

A significant part of the objections to bendy buses is that they are
seen as 'free buses' - I think this objection is rather overblown, but
I won't get into that debate now - the point being the 'driver doesn't
check tickets' model of operation (as seen on bendy buses - we could
call it the 'open bus' model) looks as though it doesn't have much of
a future.

At least in the immediate future... how fare collection will work on
the new 'Boris buses' (the new Routemasters) is very unclear at the
moment. There are calls to bring back conductors, but given the very
high proportion of passengers these days who have pre-paid tickets
(whether Oyster PAYG, Travelcards or bus passes) it is perhaps
questionable whether that would be a of use of resources. That said,
if there were to be an open platform on the bus then conductors seem
to be necessary. But if there aren't conductors (and thus I suppose no
open platform) then the 'driver doesn't check tickets' model of
operation could be used on these buses. But that wouldn't quite mesh
with (a) Boris' desire to bring back conductors and (b) the criticism
that people might not pay their fares under the 'open bus' model, a
criticism that has certainly been espoused by Team Boris.

So I don't think your assumption that the 'open bus' model will
continue is necessarily that well grounded in how things are
developing.

A reasonably large entrance vestibule with parallel passways for oystercard
users and ticket customers and where people could wait to buy tickets from a
vending machine before passing on into the bus without involving the driver
would be the best answer.

JG.
"Mizter T" wrote in message
...

On 5 Feb, 12:15, Mizter T wrote:

On 5 Feb, 12:02, David Cantrell wrote:

On Tue, Feb 03, 2009 at 03:38:45PM -0000, Andrew Heenan wrote:
much slower buses (imagine the 38/73 congestion
at Angel every morning as drivers have to look at every ticket).

I assume that they wouldn't. Just like they don't have to look at every
single paper ticket now. They certainly never look at mine, because it
stays in my pocket. They never look at those that people buy at the
roadside ticket machines either, unless the passenger is an ignorant
tourist who insists on getting on at the front doors and showing the
driver the ticket.

Enforcement would be, just like today, done by bands of roving
inspectors.

I think you may be assuming wrong - you qthe beginning of Andrew's
paragraph read: "And, like the bendies, the advantages of Oyster would
only be visible after it was banned [...]". The future


Argh, that's the nth time that I've managed to submit a post before
I'd finished composing it lately - butter finger-o-rama. Apologies -
let me start again...

I think you may be assuming wrong - you quoted the end of Andrew's
paragraph, teh beginning of which read: "And, like the bendies, the
advantages of Oyster would only be visible after it was banned [...]".

The more immediate future holds bendy buses being replaced by standard
double-deckers that operate under the conventional arrangement whereby
passengers enter via the front door and have their tickets checked as
they pass by the driver. I think the replacement double-deckers for
the 'Red Arrow' services (routes 507 and 521) are possibly to offer
either door boarding, but these are quite specialist routes (weekday
only linking central London termini).

A significant part of the objections to bendy buses is that they are
seen as 'free buses' - I think this objection is rather overblown, but
I won't get into that debate now - the point being the 'driver doesn't
check tickets' model of operation (as seen on bendy buses - we could
call it the 'open bus' model) looks as though it doesn't have much of
a future.

At least in the immediate future... how fare collection will work on
the new 'Boris buses' (the new Routemasters) is very unclear at the
moment. There are calls to bring back conductors, but given the very
high proportion of passengers these days who have pre-paid tickets
(whether Oyster PAYG, Travelcards or bus passes) it is perhaps
questionable whether that would be a of use of resources. That said,
if there were to be an open platform on the bus then conductors seem
to be necessary. But if there aren't conductors (and thus I suppose no
open platform) then the 'driver doesn't check tickets' model of
operation could be used on these buses. But that wouldn't quite mesh
with (a) Boris' desire to bring back conductors and (b) the criticism
that people might not pay their fares under the 'open bus' model, a
criticism that has certainly been espoused by Team Boris.

So I don't think your assumption that the 'open bus' model will
continue is necessarily that well grounded in how things are
developing.

On Thu, Feb 05, 2009 at 05:13:06AM -0800, Mizter T wrote:

A significant part of the objections to bendy buses is that they are
seen as 'free buses'

Most of the objections I've seen are that they are not suitable for the
roads on which they run. Although the most obvious example I know of
(Bloomsbury St / New Oxford St) seems to have neeb fixed by re-routing
some of the traffic to avoid it. eg, the 38 now goes down Shaftesbury
Avenue instead.

At least in the immediate future... how fare collection will work on
the new 'Boris buses' (the new Routemasters) is very unclear at the
moment. There are calls to bring back conductors, but given the very
high proportion of passengers these days who have pre-paid tickets
(whether Oyster PAYG, Travelcards or bus passes) it is perhaps
questionable whether that would be a of use of resources.

When I was commuting on Routemasters before the 38 went bendy, almost
everyone had pre-paid tickets too. The conductor didn't appear to take
a great deal of cash.

--
David Cantrell | London Perl Mongers Deputy Chief Heretic

EIN KIRCHE! EIN KREDO! EIN PAPST!

On Tue, Feb 03, 2009 at 06:15:12AM -0800, Martin Petrov wrote:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...ansport-london

Reduces dwell times for buses (massively)

No it doesn't. It's requiring that everyone have a ticket before they
get on the bus that does that. Doesn't matter whether it's Oyster, a
paper travelcard, or a ticket bought at a roadside ticket machine.

drivers to pocket cash

See above.

stops you needing to fumble for change at
the ticket machine

No, instead you have to hunt high and low for somewhere to sell you the
damned thing in the first place, and then fight the TfL bureaucracy and
their expensive phone lines to get your refunds when they screw up - if
you realise that you were ripped off in the first place.

But no, you think you're being watched by MI5. (like they've nothing
better to do.)

I'm not worried about MI5 so much as I am by bent coppers and bent TfL
employees who have access to the database and sell info to, eg, private
dicks, divorce lawyers, and other organised criminals. Bent coppers do
that all the time with the supposedly secure police national computer.

--
David Cantrell | Reality Engineer, Ministry of Information

Lesbian bigots try to put finger in linguistic dyke:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7376919.stm

On 4 Feb, 13:01, David Cantrell wrote:

On Tue, Feb 03, 2009 at 06:15:12AM -0800, Martin Petrov wrote:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...ter-card-trans...

Reduces dwell times for buses (massively)

No it doesn't. *It's requiring that everyone have a ticket before they
get on the bus that does that. *Doesn't matter whether it's Oyster, a
paper travelcard, or a ticket bought at a roadside ticket machine.

Wrong - apart from bendy buses and the central London pay-before-you-
board area, you are *not* required to have a ticket before you board a
London bus - fact. But Oyster has *massively* increased the number of
people who have a ticket before they board - true, this has been done
in part through the carrot and stick of differential prices between
cash fares and Oyster PAYG fares, but it has also worked - the number
of people paying cash for a bus fare these days is pretty minimal and
I find it out of the ordinary when someone does.


drivers to pocket cash

See above.

Again, wrong - though there are other methods in place to minimise the
possibility of this happening.


* * * * * * * * * * * *stops you needing to fumble for change at
the ticket machine

No, instead you have to hunt high and low for somewhere to sell you the
damned thing in the first place, and then fight the TfL bureaucracy and
their expensive phone lines to get your refunds when they screw up - if
you realise that you were ripped off in the first place.

There has been a great increase lately in the number of shops that
sell and top-up Oyster cards. You can also order them online, and set
then up for auto-topup.

Issues with Oyster overcharging through no fault of the user are rare.


But no, you think you're being watched by MI5. (like they've nothing
better to do.)

I'm not worried about MI5 so much as I am by bent coppers and bent TfL
employees who have access to the database and sell info to, eg, private
dicks, divorce lawyers, and other organised criminals. *Bent coppers do
that all the time with the supposedly secure police national computer.


The police do not have direct access to the Oyster database - they
need to specifically send a request to TfL for that. This is what TfL
says about the process:

---quote---
TfL's disclosure of personal information is carried out in accordance
with the requirements of the Data Protection Act 1998 and assessed on
a case by case basis. All police requests must be submitted in
accordance with guidance from the Association of Chief Police Officers
and are coordinated by TfL's Information Access and Compliance Team.
---/quote---

And this is what TfL say regarding who has access to the database:

---quote---
Please note that a limited number of authorised individuals within TfL
can access Oyster card data and no external organisations have direct
access to the data. There are no bulk disclosures of personal data to
any public sector or commercial organisations.
---/quote---


Both those quotes are taken from the response to a letter sent to
Oyster customer services by 'Coofer Cat' aka a gent called Richard
Bolton. TfL dealt with the request under the Freedom of Information
Act - the questions and responses can be read on his webpage he
http://www.coofercat.com/wiki/OysterCardRFI

I absolutely agree that it is right to be vigilant about these matters
- as you say, both the PNC and also the DVLA database have a history
of being rather leaky, as do the databases of telecoms companies and
other utilities. This is something that interests me - thus far I
haven't seen, read or heard of anything that I consider a cause for
alarm in this regard.

Might MI5 or GCHQ have a back-door into the system, or perhaps just an
insider? I guess it's possible. However one might imagine that those
with serious mischief in mind would likely avoid using an Oyster card
anyway.

In message
, at
06:43:38 on Wed, 4 Feb 2009, Mizter T remarked:
Please note that a limited number of authorised individuals within TfL
can access Oyster card data and no external organisations have direct
access to the data.

Yet, but one more terrorist outrage and it will go the way of Congestion
Charging, with all the data available to the police.
--
Roland Perry