http://www.london.gov.uk/view_press_...eleaseid=20938

Hallelujah! Phase 2b of the East London Line Extension, which will
link the existing line south of Surrey Quays to Clapham Junction via
the 'South London Line' railway has finally been given the full go-
ahead after an eon of prevarication, in part the result of squabbling
between the DfT and TfL/ the Mayor of London over funding. Whilst the
latest negotiations are almost certain to have had a political angle,
what with the different political hues of Boris and the government,
this is a saga that has been going on for a lot longer than the
current Mayor is likely to have known what ELLX phase 2b actually
meant (which should perhaps be borne in mind when it comes to handing
out the credit - but fair play to him in so far as he recognised the
importance of the project and pushed ahead with it).

The East London Line link to Clapham Jn will provide an abundance of
orbital journey possibilities.

Phase 2b is shown on this map in light blue (PDF):
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa..._route_map.pdf

"Mizter T" wrote

The other issue is probably future lack of trains to and from
Battersea Park from SLL destinations. I think a good number of people
using Battersea Park via the SLL are actually changing for trains to
Clapham Jn, so the ELLX will provide a direct service. However the big
plans for Battersea Power Station's redevelopment mean that it will
become a centre of employment, so it's a bit of a shame to lose direct
trains there from the SLL. Plus Battersea Park station is obviously
great for getting to Battersea Park itself, which is a rather splendid
park. Passengers will of course be able to change at either Clapham Jn
or Victoria to get to and from Battersea Park, or they could walk or
get a bus from Wandsworth Rd station.

AIUI the SLL platforms at Battersea Park are doomed anyway, as indeed is the
SLL between Wandsworth Road and Battersea Park, as the South London Metro 10
car scheme will involve extending the Down Slow platform across the
junction.

Peter

"Mizter T" wrote in message
...
http://www.london.gov.uk/view_press_...eleaseid=20938

Hallelujah! Phase 2b of the East London Line Extension, which will
link the existing line south of Surrey Quays to Clapham Junction via
the 'South London Line' railway has finally been given the full go-
ahead after an eon of prevarication, in part the result of squabbling
between the DfT and TfL/ the Mayor of London over funding. Whilst the
latest negotiations are almost certain to have had a political angle,
what with the different political hues of Boris and the government,
this is a saga that has been going on for a lot longer than the
current Mayor is likely to have known what ELLX phase 2b actually
meant (which should perhaps be borne in mind when it comes to handing
out the credit - but fair play to him in so far as he recognised the
importance of the project and pushed ahead with it).

The East London Line link to Clapham Jn will provide an abundance of
orbital journey possibilities.

Phase 2b is shown on this map in light blue (PDF):
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa..._route_map.pdf

Funny, whilst on a trip today from Bromley via Clapham Jn, Willesden, Gospel
Oak and Barking (yes I am!) and back to Bromley, I wondered why they don't
switch the SL service from London Bridge at Wandsworth Road to Olympia (or
some sensible point along the WLL)? Solves DH problem and gives another way
of avoiding central London.

Really need to do something about the speed limits on the WLL though!

MaxB

On 12 Feb, 14:49, MIG wrote:

(snip)

It's a kind of mixture of good and bad for down my way.

I'm certainly not unsympathetic to concerns about the knock-on changes
that ELLX will bring - though in many ways those changes are actually
the result of other developments (i.e. Thameslink at London Bridge and
Battersea Park's platform lengthening) and ELLX phase 2b broadly fills
the gap that they'll create.


I've only had to go to Battersea Park once, for which I went to
Lewisham and then changed once at Denmark Hill, but the lack of
evening and Sunday service has long scuppered many possibilities.
Normally it would be Victoria via Underground and out again, which
seems a bit ridiculous, but it's what the South Central area has
always been like. *Closes down evenings and Sundays, so people don't
use it, knowing they can't get home. *I hope the ELLX will change
that.

The obvious solution is of course to get the Victoria - Lewisham -
Dartford (via Bexleyheath) service running in the late evenings and on
Sundays too (you say exactly the same in your post). I can't see why
this doesn't or cannot happen - perhaps there's a fear it will become
too popular with people deserting London Bridge and CX etc! It's a
very useful service, slicing across south London to Victoria with a
stop at Peckham Rye for connections to south central territory and at
Denmark Hill for the hospitals.


A couple of times I've needed to go from Putney to Denmark Hill and
changed at the Batterseas, but now I'd change at Clapham Junction.

Ah yes - my feeling is that it can't be much further from the
platforms of Queentown Road Battersea to Battersea Park than it is
from one side of Clapham Jn to the other! Certainly a useful
interchange point - one hopes that people aren't getting off SWT at
Clapham Jn for a Southern train to Battersea Park and then changing
i.e. adding in an unnecessary leg, though I'm sure some are!


The thing that I think will be a real problem is Denmark Hill to
London Bridge, the only route when the Lewisham route is closed, but
used by an awful lot of people according to my observation.

Good point. The best solution is the simple one of course - run the
Victoria - Lewisham - Dartford service all the time. The fact it dies
in the mid evening M-S is just silly. You've said just that many times
before of course!


It depends on how good the connections are at Queens Road Peckham. *I
wouldn't recommend the ****-soaked concrete staircases of Peckham Rye.

You've said this before about Peckham Rye and I never got round to
taking you up on it. The whole station is rather better looked after
these days than it has been in the past. I won't set myself up as a
hostage to fortune and vouch from them being spotless but they don't
stink of **** any more. The station is visibly staffed (not just the
ticket office) for much if not all the day and is quite busy. I agree
that it could do with a proper bit of redevelopment. The one staircase
that is somewhat objectionable is that leading to and from platform 4
- if nothing else it'd be good to have something done to improve it.

Regarding connections at Queen's Road Peckham (QRP) and Peckham Rye -
for reasons unclear to me the new (Dec '08) timetable removed 2tph off-
peak from London Bridge via Peckham Rye, Tulse Hill and West Norwood
to Smitham, reducing the service from 8tph to 6tph. My recollection is
that these ran just in front of of or behind the SLL service, so their
loss from Peckham Rye, QRP and South Bermondsey wasn't a big deal.
However the loss of the SLL service would further reduce this to 4tph
from these stations, unless the SLL trains were replaced by something
else - I imagine that they would be but this is something to look out
for.


I note that there is no mention of an interchange at Brixton, which is
so bleedin obviously needed.

Problem is it's so bleedin expensive, up on stilts towering above
Brixton! I recall the now defunct SLL travellers association
("SoLLTA") pushing for this in the eighties. I can't see it happening
imminently, but the pressure will surely grow as Brixtonians watch the
orange Overground trains passing above them/ passengers watch Brixton
passing them by below.

I've said beforehand that I sort of think that a new East Brixton
station wouldn't be such a bad thing - it wouldn't be a transport
interchange mecca, but it would serve the Brixton nonetheless.


I wonder if the evening and Sunday services (both of which have
existed at different times) between Lewisham and Victoria will be
restored so that there is a full range of connections (and also what
hours the Bellingham service will run).

Any idea when the Lewisham to Victoria via P. Rye services last ran in
the evenings and on Sundays?

I suppose there's still the question of whether the Bellingham service
(aka 'SLL2') will actually happen - I very much hope it does. As well
as acting as a substitute for the withdrawn SLL service it would also
offer a brand new direct 2tph service to Victoria from Bellingham,
Catford and Crofton Park as well as an increased frequency of 4tph to
Victoria from Nunhead as well. One would hope it ran every day, all
day of course!

On Feb 12, 4:23*pm, Mizter T wrote:
On 12 Feb, 14:49, MIG wrote:



(snip)

(much more snip)


It depends on how good the connections are at Queens Road Peckham. *I
wouldn't recommend the ****-soaked concrete staircases of Peckham Rye.

You've said this before about Peckham Rye and I never got round to
taking you up on it. The whole station is rather better looked after
these days than it has been in the past. I won't set myself up as a
hostage to fortune and vouch from them being spotless but they don't
stink of **** any more. The station is visibly staffed (not just the
ticket office) for much if not all the day and is quite busy. I agree
that it could do with a proper bit of redevelopment. The one staircase
that is somewhat objectionable is that leading to and from platform 4
- if nothing else it'd be good to have something done to improve it.

Perhaps I've avoided it after traumatic experiences, so you could be
right. But they are still long and steep.


Regarding connections at Queen's Road Peckham (QRP) and Peckham Rye -
for reasons unclear to me the new (Dec '08) timetable removed 2tph off-
peak from London Bridge via Peckham Rye, Tulse Hill and West Norwood
to Smitham, reducing the service from 8tph to 6tph. My recollection is
that these ran just in front of of or behind the SLL service, so their
loss from Peckham Rye, QRP and South Bermondsey wasn't a big deal.
However the loss of the SLL service would further reduce this to 4tph
from these stations, unless the SLL trains were replaced by something
else - I imagine that they would be but this is something to look out
for.

I was also thinking that, depending on timing, it might be more
convenient to change from a South Eastern service rather than ELLX, in
which case Queens Road wouldn't be an option and the full staircase
experience at Peckham Rye would be required.

I note that there is no mention of an interchange at Brixton, which is
so bleedin obviously needed.

Problem is it's so bleedin expensive, up on stilts towering above
Brixton! I recall the now defunct SLL travellers association
("SoLLTA") pushing for this in the eighties. I can't see it happening
imminently, but the pressure will surely grow as Brixtonians watch the
orange Overground trains passing above them/ passengers watch Brixton
passing them by below.

I've said beforehand that I sort of think that a new East Brixton
station wouldn't be such a bad thing - it wouldn't be a transport
interchange mecca, but it would serve the Brixton nonetheless.


I was wondering, with the withdrawal of Eurostars that way, if there
was space to build platforms on the Chatham/Catford side where there's
already a disused platform stub attached to the existing Brixton
station. But ELLX trains couldn't reach those tracks without a new
crossover somewhere, and they'd have to cross back again ...
Southeastern could use it though, and one change at Denmark Hill.



I wonder if the evening and Sunday services (both of which have
existed at different times) between Lewisham and Victoria will be
restored so that there is a full range of connections (and also what
hours the Bellingham service will run).

Any idea when the Lewisham to Victoria via P. Rye services last ran in
the evenings and on Sundays?

I was working near Victoria in 1998 and 1999, and during that time I'm
pretty sure the evening services were withdrawn, to my annoyance if I
went for a pint after. So probably 1999 for evenings (last train
changed from 2316 to 1946).

There were services on Sundays during the period when the Dome was
open, and for the remainder of a timetable period after it closed.
They went to Charlton rather than Bexleyheath, understandably. Also
extra trains the rest of the time, which partly made up for the loss
of evenings.


I suppose there's still the question of whether the Bellingham service
(aka 'SLL2') will actually happen - I very much hope it does. As well
as acting as a substitute for the withdrawn SLL service it would also
offer a brand new direct 2tph service to Victoria from Bellingham,
Catford and Crofton Park as well as an increased frequency of 4tph to
Victoria from Nunhead as well. One would hope it ran every day, all
day of course!

Not so long ago there were no local Sunday services on the Catford
line, just extra stops at Denmark, Peckham, Catford and Bellingham for
Dover services, so things can improve.

The Sunday service, when introduced, went from Victoria rather than
Blackfriars.

"Mizter T" wrote

Any idea when the Lewisham to Victoria via P. Rye services last ran in
the evenings and on Sundays?

I've only looked at Summer timetables, so dates are a bit approximate, but
the history seems to be:
1935 Dartford -Lewisham - Peckham Rye -Blackfriars peak hours service
started. (The LCDR had run trains to Greenwich Park via Nunhead until 1917,
but these did not give a good interchange with any SER station).
Service withdrawn during WW2
1946 service reinstated and extended to Holborn Viaduct, but remained peak
hours only. To reach Victoria a change to the SLL at Denmark Hill was
needed.
1986 peak services to both Holborn Viaduct and Victoria
1990 timetable shows the Blackfriars trains running to St Pauls Thameslink,
but this never actually happened.
1991 service was via Bexleyheath to Victoria and via Sidcup to Blackfriars,
both services remaining Monday to Friday peak hours only.
1993 Sidcup route service to Blackfriars withdrawn; Bexleyheath route
service to Victoria remained, but still peak hours only.
1994 All day Monday - Saturday service started Dartford - Victoria via
Bexleyheath, and for this timetable only included klate evenings.
1995 Evening service withdrawn
Trains never seem to have used the route on Sundays (apart from engineering
diversions - at one time if the Sole Street route was closed Victoria -
Ramsgate trains would call at Nunhead, for rail connections, and Lee, for a
bus connection from Bromley South. More recently there have been occasions
when no trains have run via Bromley South, and a Victoria - Bromley North
service has run - the Bromley North branch normally having branch trains to
Grove Park only, and no trains at all on Sundays).

Peter

On Feb 12, 5:36*pm, "Peter Masson" wrote:
"Mizter T" wrote



Any idea when the Lewisham to Victoria via P. Rye services last ran in
the evenings and on Sundays?

I've only looked at Summer timetables, so dates are a bit approximate, but
the history seems to be:
1935 Dartford -Lewisham - Peckham Rye -Blackfriars peak hours service
started. (The LCDR had run trains to Greenwich Park via Nunhead until 1917,
but these did not give a good interchange with any SER station).
Service withdrawn during WW2
1946 service reinstated and extended to Holborn Viaduct, but remained peak
hours only. To reach Victoria a change to the SLL at Denmark Hill was
needed.
1986 peak services to both Holborn Viaduct and Victoria
1990 timetable shows the Blackfriars trains running to St Pauls Thameslink,
but this never actually happened.
1991 service was via Bexleyheath to Victoria and via Sidcup to Blackfriars,
both services remaining Monday to Friday peak hours only.
1993 Sidcup route service to Blackfriars withdrawn; Bexleyheath route
service to Victoria remained, but still peak hours only.

All sorts of interesting things ran while Charing Cross was closed for
the London Bridge extensions that year though.

1994 All day Monday - Saturday service started Dartford - Victoria via
Bexleyheath, and for this timetable only included klate evenings.
1995 Evening service withdrawn

I must have misremembered then. Maybe I was annoyed the whole time I
was working near Victoria but assumed the change to have been while I
was (1999).

In fact, now I remember why I was annoyed, and you are right about the
period. When the services were introduced, they weren't publicised at
all but those of us who noticed them found them useful.

Then finally a poster campaign announcing the Victoria services
coincided with the withdrawal of the evening services (the only ones I
used at the time) before any chance to see if they would then be
popular.

Trains never seem to have used the route on Sundays (apart from engineering
diversions - at one time if the Sole Street route was closed Victoria -
Ramsgate trains would call at Nunhead, for rail connections, and Lee, for a
bus connection from Bromley South. More recently there have been occasions
when no trains have run via Bromley South, and a Victoria - Bromley North
service has run - the Bromley North branch normally having branch trains to
Grove Park only, and no trains at all on Sundays).

But don't forget the Dome trains that I mentioned in my other reply.
They ran for about three timetables I think.

On 12 Feb, 16:04, "Peter Masson" wrote:

"Mizter T" wrote

The other issue is probably future lack of trains to and from
Battersea Park from SLL destinations. I think a good number of people
using Battersea Park via the SLL are actually changing for trains to
Clapham Jn, so the ELLX will provide a direct service. However the big
plans for Battersea Power Station's redevelopment mean that it will
become a centre of employment, so it's a bit of a shame to lose direct
trains there from the SLL. Plus Battersea Park station is obviously
great for getting to Battersea Park itself, which is a rather splendid
park. Passengers will of course be able to change at either Clapham Jn
or Victoria to get to and from Battersea Park, or they could walk or
get a bus from Wandsworth Rd station.

AIUI the SLL platforms at Battersea Park are doomed anyway, as indeed is the
SLL between Wandsworth Road and Battersea Park, as the South London Metro 10
car scheme will involve extending the Down Slow platform across the
junction.


Yeah, somewhere in the midst of my second lengthy post I did mention
the fact that the platform lengthening plans would sever the SLL/
Atlantic Lines at Battersea Park - I then threw in a query as to
whether these plans will actually reach fruition any time soon, as I
suppose the recession might cast a shadow over it all. The thing with
the RUS modus operadi is that we hear what the planners'
recommendations are, but we never then hear what the masterplan of
action is from DfT Rail (cue hilarity) - thus we're left guessing
whether the new Victoria to Bellingham service will actually
materialise. If I was to guess I'd say it would happen, and that it's
in the DfT's gameplan, but at present it has not yet been finalised. I
wonder how long we'll wait for an announcement - the longer there
isn't one, the more people will wonder whether it's ever going to
happen or not.

It's silly as the DfT could avoid adverse publicity by making an
announcement sooner rather than later, though I suppose it's possible
that they might wait and see if there is any uproar - if there is
they'll react, if there isn't they'll forget about it - in other words
the delay in itself is a kind of sounding board. Perhaps I'm crediting
them with being somewhat more wiley than they actually are!

The other thing about the Victoria - Bellingham service ('SLL2' as
I've called it) that I didn't mention earlier is that it conveniently
runs out of Victoria's less busy eastern side, thus freeing up
platforms in the central side of the station - the South London RUS
highlights this as a benefit of this plan. So the SLL is basically
seen as the weakest link at both London Bridge and Victoria (central),
getting the boot from both of them, though space is then offered up in
Victoria eastern for its SLL2 replacement to Bellingham. Of course
this also precludes a stop at Battersea Park, because trains from the
eastern side of Victoria can't even get on to the central side's
tracks to get to Battersea Park in the first place (and making complex
alterations to enable this would no doubt be unwelcome).

Anyway I didn't really mean to focus so much on the issues surrounding
the oncoming ELLX link to Clapham Jn - I think it's great that it's
happening, it completes the picture of an orbital route around London
- but I don't think it's great because it'll look all neat and tidy on
a map, I think it's great because it'll be genuinely useful.

On Feb 12, 6:23*pm, Mizter T wrote:
On 12 Feb, 16:04, "Peter Masson" wrote:





"Mizter T" wrote

The other issue is probably future lack of trains to and from
Battersea Park from SLL destinations. I think a good number of people
using Battersea Park via the SLL are actually changing for trains to
Clapham Jn, so the ELLX will provide a direct service. However the big
plans for Battersea Power Station's redevelopment mean that it will
become a centre of employment, so it's a bit of a shame to lose direct
trains there from the SLL. Plus Battersea Park station is obviously
great for getting to Battersea Park itself, which is a rather splendid
park. Passengers will of course be able to change at either Clapham Jn
or Victoria to get to and from Battersea Park, or they could walk or
get a bus from Wandsworth Rd station.

AIUI the SLL platforms at Battersea Park are doomed anyway, as indeed is the
SLL between Wandsworth Road and Battersea Park, as the South London Metro 10
car scheme will involve extending the Down Slow platform across the
junction.

Yeah, somewhere in the midst of my second lengthy post I did mention
the fact that the platform lengthening plans would sever the SLL/
Atlantic Lines at Battersea Park - I then threw in a query as to
whether these plans will actually reach fruition any time soon, as I
suppose the recession might cast a shadow over it all. The thing with
the RUS modus operadi is that we hear what the planners'
recommendations are, but we never then hear what the masterplan of
action is from DfT Rail (cue hilarity) - thus we're left guessing
whether the new Victoria to Bellingham service will actually
materialise. If I was to guess I'd say it would happen, and that it's
in the DfT's gameplan, but at present it has not yet been finalised. I
wonder how long we'll wait for an announcement - the longer there
isn't one, the more people will wonder whether it's ever going to
happen or not.

It's silly as the DfT could avoid adverse publicity by making an
announcement sooner rather than later, though I suppose it's possible
that they might wait and see if there is any uproar - if there is
they'll react, if there isn't they'll forget about it - in other words
the delay in itself is a kind of sounding board. Perhaps I'm crediting
them with being somewhat more wiley than they actually are!

The other thing about the Victoria - Bellingham service ('SLL2' as
I've called it) that I didn't mention earlier is that it conveniently
runs out of Victoria's less busy eastern side, thus freeing up
platforms in the central side of the station - the South London RUS
highlights this as a benefit of this plan. So the SLL is basically
seen as the weakest link at both London Bridge and Victoria (central),
getting the boot from both of them, though space is then offered up in
Victoria eastern for its SLL2 replacement to Bellingham. Of course
this also precludes a stop *at Battersea Park, because trains from the
eastern side of Victoria can't even get on to the central side's
tracks to get to Battersea Park in the first place (and making complex
alterations to enable this would no doubt be unwelcome).

I'm sure they can. There's a crossover that can be reached from
platforms 3 - 8, leading to the "Brighton Slow" tracks.

On Feb 12, 6:31*pm, MIG wrote:
On Feb 12, 6:23*pm, Mizter T wrote:





On 12 Feb, 16:04, "Peter Masson" wrote:

"Mizter T" wrote

The other issue is probably future lack of trains to and from
Battersea Park from SLL destinations. I think a good number of people
using Battersea Park via the SLL are actually changing for trains to
Clapham Jn, so the ELLX will provide a direct service. However the big
plans for Battersea Power Station's redevelopment mean that it will
become a centre of employment, so it's a bit of a shame to lose direct
trains there from the SLL. Plus Battersea Park station is obviously
great for getting to Battersea Park itself, which is a rather splendid
park. Passengers will of course be able to change at either Clapham Jn
or Victoria to get to and from Battersea Park, or they could walk or
get a bus from Wandsworth Rd station.

AIUI the SLL platforms at Battersea Park are doomed anyway, as indeed is the
SLL between Wandsworth Road and Battersea Park, as the South London Metro 10
car scheme will involve extending the Down Slow platform across the
junction.

Yeah, somewhere in the midst of my second lengthy post I did mention
the fact that the platform lengthening plans would sever the SLL/
Atlantic Lines at Battersea Park - I then threw in a query as to
whether these plans will actually reach fruition any time soon, as I
suppose the recession might cast a shadow over it all. The thing with
the RUS modus operadi is that we hear what the planners'
recommendations are, but we never then hear what the masterplan of
action is from DfT Rail (cue hilarity) - thus we're left guessing
whether the new Victoria to Bellingham service will actually
materialise. If I was to guess I'd say it would happen, and that it's
in the DfT's gameplan, but at present it has not yet been finalised. I
wonder how long we'll wait for an announcement - the longer there
isn't one, the more people will wonder whether it's ever going to
happen or not.

It's silly as the DfT could avoid adverse publicity by making an
announcement sooner rather than later, though I suppose it's possible
that they might wait and see if there is any uproar - if there is
they'll react, if there isn't they'll forget about it - in other words
the delay in itself is a kind of sounding board. Perhaps I'm crediting
them with being somewhat more wiley than they actually are!

The other thing about the Victoria - Bellingham service ('SLL2' as
I've called it) that I didn't mention earlier is that it conveniently
runs out of Victoria's less busy eastern side, thus freeing up
platforms in the central side of the station - the South London RUS
highlights this as a benefit of this plan. So the SLL is basically
seen as the weakest link at both London Bridge and Victoria (central),
getting the boot from both of them, though space is then offered up in
Victoria eastern for its SLL2 replacement to Bellingham. Of course
this also precludes a stop *at Battersea Park, because trains from the
eastern side of Victoria can't even get on to the central side's
tracks to get to Battersea Park in the first place (and making complex
alterations to enable this would no doubt be unwelcome).

I'm sure they can. *There's a crossover that can be reached from
platforms 3 - 8, leading to the "Brighton Slow" tracks.

(I did your trick of posting before finishing.)

I was going to say that platform 8 is already in regular use by
Southern services (or at least it has been in recent years).