[original thread on uk.railway]
[x-posted to uk.transport.london]


On 13 Feb, 22:57, "Peter Smyth" wrote:

"tim....." wrote:

"Jonathan Morton"
wrote:

"Mizter T" wrote:

(snip)

I don't think you could dive off at Oxford Circus even if you
wanted to - cross-London transfer by Tube is valid between
a set list of LU/ DLR stations, and AIUI tickets with the
Maltese cross will only work the gates at those stations.

Agreed, but presumably in practice you would be able to get out.

The ticket won't open the gate. You have to ask to be let in/out and
my find that the station staff don't comply at some stations.

There used to be a documented concession that the cross London ticket
was valid for one trip to/from any pair of stations but this (the
documentation) seems to have been removed.

The "How To Cross London" page in the NR Timetable says

A break of journey is permitted at an intermediate Underground station,
but a further ticket must be purchased in order to continue the journey.


This is interesting - I was always under the impression that cross-
London transfer by Tube with a Maltese cross marked ticket was only
valid between stations on that list.

The now out-of-date NFM98 (which was valid until May '08) had this to
say on the matter on page A4 [1]:

---quote---
Travel via London
Ticket prices in Section C, for journeys routed for travel ’via
London’ and marked with the symbol † [Maltese cross], include the cost
of transfer across London by London Underground, DLR or First Capital
Connect train services on the Thameslink route. Tickets displaying the
’cross-London’ marker † [Maltese cross], are valid for travel between
any two of the following stations appropriate to the route of the
through rail journey being made.
[List of stations follows...]
---/quote---


It doesn't mention anything about bailing out of the Underground
network at another point - failure to mention it doesn't of course
mean that it's prohibited, but it doesn't mean it's allowed either.

Then as you say there's the information in the National Rail Timetable
(eNRT) as provided by Network Rail [2], specifically this bit on page
42:

---quote---
Ticket & Fares
Rail tickets for journeys routed via London are valid for transfer by
London Underground or First Capital Connect services between London
terminal stations, and other designated interchange stations*
appropriate to the route of the through journey being made, at no
extra cost. For example [examples snipped]

(*NB. check which cross London routes your ticket is valid before you
travel. A break of journey is permitted
at an intermediate Underground station, but a further ticket must be
purchased in order to continue the journey)
---/quote---


That's reiterated by what is said on the National Rail "Travelling to
and via London" webpage [3]:
---quote---
You can 'break your journey' and leave the Underground service en
route. However, you'll need to buy another ticket in order to continue
your journey.
---/quote---


I wonder if London Underground are even aware of this! I imagine that
ATOC (well specifically RSP) pays a lump sum of money each month/
quarter/ year/ whatever for this cross-London transfer facility and
I'd be interested to know what the terms of that actually are. tim's
comments above certainly seem to back-up my notion that Maltese cross-
London tickets are only accepted by LU gates at stations on the list.
Do LU know that the National Rail interpretation on things is that
'transfer passengers' can indeed get out at Oxford Circus if they want
to - or has NR (i.e. ATOC) just unilaterally decided upon this
interpretation? Hmm.

The idea that these Maltese cross-London tickets are actually good for
a journey to many parts of the Underground network - and look at the
station list to see what I mean (it includes 'far flung' places like
Upminster, Ealing Broadway, Wimbledon, Balham, Lewisham, Walthamstow
etc) - is rather in contradiction to what this scheme is intended to
facilitate, i.e. the cross-London transfer of rail passengers by Tube/
DLR.


----------
[1] NFM98 Section A (PDF):
http://www.atoc.org/retail/_download...8_Common_A.pdf

[2] eNRT - Commercial Information section (PDF):
http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse%...nformation.pdf
or via http://tinyurl.com/bbwzaq

eNRT index page:
http://www.networkrail.co.uk/aspx/3828.aspx

[3] National Rail "Travelling to and via London" webpage:
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/london/

N.B. - the station list can be seen by clicking on the "show Station
List" link.

--
Mike D

Mizter T wrote

[original thread on uk.railway][x-posted to uk.transport.london]


On 13 Feb, 22:57, "Peter Smyth" wrote:

There used to be a documented concession that the cross London
ticket
was valid for one trip to/from any pair of stations but this (the
documentation) seems to have been removed.

The "How To Cross London" page in the NR Timetable says

A break of journey is permitted at an intermediate Underground
station,
but a further ticket must be purchased in order to continue the
journey.

This is interesting - I was always under the impression that cross-
London transfer by Tube with a Maltese cross marked ticket was only
valid between stations on that list.

The now out-of-date NFM98 (which was valid until May '08) had this to
say on the matter on page A4 [1]:

---quote---
Travel via London
Ticket prices in Section C, for journeys routed for travel ’via
London’ and marked with the symbol † [Maltese cross], include the cost
of transfer across London by London Underground, DLR or First Capital
Connect train services on the Thameslink route. Tickets displaying the
’cross-London’ marker † [Maltese cross], are valid for travel between
any two of the following stations appropriate to the route of the
through rail journey being made.
[List of stations follows...]
---/quote---

It doesn't mention anything about bailing out of the Underground
network at another point - failure to mention it doesn't of course
mean that it's prohibited, but it doesn't mean it's allowed either.

Then as you say there's the information in the National Rail
Timetable
(eNRT) as provided by Network Rail [2], specifically this bit on page
42:

---quote---
Ticket & Fares
Rail tickets for journeys routed via London are valid for transfer by
London Underground or First Capital Connect services between London
terminal stations, and other designated interchange stations*
appropriate to the route of the through journey being made, at no
extra cost. For example [examples snipped]

(*NB. check which cross London routes your ticket is valid before you
travel. A break of journey is permitted
at an intermediate Underground station, but a further ticket must be
purchased in order to continue the journey)
---/quote---


That's reiterated by what is said on the National Rail "Travelling to
and via London" webpage [3]:
---quote---
You can 'break your journey' and leave the Underground service en
route. However, you'll need to buy another ticket in order to continue
your journey.
---/quote---

I wonder if London Underground are even aware of this! I imagine that
ATOC (well specifically RSP) pays a lump sum of money each month/
quarter/ year/ whatever for this cross-London transfer facility and
I'd be interested to know what the terms of that actually are. tim's
comments above certainly seem to back-up my notion that Maltese cross-
London tickets are only accepted by LU gates at stations on the list.
Do LU know that the National Rail interpretation on things is that
'transfer passengers' can indeed get out at Oxford Circus if they want
to - or has NR (i.e. ATOC) just unilaterally decided upon this
interpretation? Hmm.

The idea that these Maltese cross-London tickets are actually good
for
a journey to many parts of the Underground network - and look at the
station list to see what I mean (it includes 'far flung' places like
Upminster, Ealing Broadway, Wimbledon, Balham, Lewisham, Walthamstow
etc) - is rather in contradiction to what this scheme is intended to
facilitate, i.e. the cross-London transfer of rail passengers by Tube/
DLR.

When this last came up IIRC someone pointed out the limitations of the
mag stripe technology on these and cash fare tickets.

So if your through journey involved transfer from "London Terminals" to
Kings Cross and an ordinary zone 1 was issued then the gates would
swallow it on exit at Oxford Circus in the ordinary course of things.
Hence " you'll need to buy another ticket in order to continue your
journey." Of course Kings Cross was and officially may still be a OOSI
(Out of Station Interchange) so the barriers there would return your
ticket, say to continue your journey by Circle to Liverpool Street.

I think that when I have been issued a "Maltese Cross" interchange
ticket it has also had printed on it the zones it was valid for.

Given the possibilities listed a interchange ticket for a journey to
Southend might need to be valid for zone 6 (Upminster) and to Harlow
for zone 4 (Tottenham Hale) but it is not necessary for all interchange
tickets to be so valid. However the Tube fare structure has been so
flattened that issuing them all as Z1-6 wouldn't cost much and moreover
in every case the extra distance on tube is an alternative to NR, not
an extra.

--
Mike D

In practice, if someone is travelling with an '+Any permitted' ticket
from say Euston to Victoria, and decides to alight at Oxford Circus,
he will be allowed egress from the station but will be told that he
will have to pay for another ticket if he later decides to travel from
Oxford Circus to Victoria.

In article
,
(Offramp) wrote:

In practice, if someone is travelling with an '+Any permitted' ticket
from say Euston to Victoria, and decides to alight at Oxford Circus,
he will be allowed egress from the station but will be told that he
will have to pay for another ticket if he later decides to travel from
Oxford Circus to Victoria.

Not my experience, though it was some time ago. I was not allowed out at
Goodge St. I went back to Euston and had no problem exiting there. It was
barely any further from my intermediate destination anyway. Maybe things
have changed.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On Sat, 14 Feb 2009 05:47:26 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:

This is interesting - I was always under the impression that cross-
London transfer by Tube with a Maltese cross marked ticket was only
valid between stations on that list.
[...]
The idea that these Maltese cross-London tickets are actually good for
a journey to many parts of the Underground network - and look at the
station list to see what I mean (it includes 'far flung' places like
Upminster, Ealing Broadway, Wimbledon, Balham, Lewisham, Walthamstow
etc) - is rather in contradiction to what this scheme is intended to
facilitate, i.e. the cross-London transfer of rail passengers by Tube/
DLR.

Interesting... I think it's time that the Maltese Cross was retired
and higher in-boundary fares for journeys that include the underground
or DLR done away with. IMHO It makes no sense to consider LU as an
entirely separate entity - if a cross-London journey requires the
underground it should have it (and ideally should be valid on the
bus), and my fare across London shouldn't be more if one of my trains
has a red end rather than a yellow one. Let's have TfL (exclusively)
set proper zonal fares within London, and the underground considered
in the routeing guide for longer journeys.

Richard.

"Richard" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 14 Feb 2009 05:47:26 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:

This is interesting - I was always under the impression that cross-
London transfer by Tube with a Maltese cross marked ticket was only
valid between stations on that list.

Sorry to dip in at the wrong point in this thread, but I missed the original
posts. Are we talking about terminating a journey short of where you'd
booked to?

If so, what's the problem? If I get a ticket to, say, Victoria, and decide
to get off at Clapham Junction who's going to stop me? I've paid for further
than I needed to go - I will leave if I wish.

Ian

On 18 Feb, 12:01, "Ian F." wrote:

"Richard" wrote:

On Sat, 14 Feb 2009 05:47:26 -0800 (PST), Mizter T
wrote:

This is interesting - I was always under the impression that cross-
London transfer by Tube with a Maltese cross marked ticket was only
valid between stations on that list.

Sorry to dip in at the wrong point in this thread, but I missed the original
posts. Are we talking about terminating a journey short of where you'd
booked to?

If so, what's the problem? If I get a ticket to, say, Victoria, and decide
to get off at Clapham Junction who's going to stop me? I've paid for further
than I needed to go - I will leave if I wish.


No - the OP has asked about breaking a Cardiff-Southampton journey
outbound at Salisbury and on the return at Bath with an Anytime
Return, which is legit.

The conversation had then turned to discussing whether or not it was
possible to break the cross-London Tube transfer leg of a journey - it
is not possible to break it, but the National Rail publicity suggest
it is possible to end it early. I was merely postulating that I wasn't
sure if this public pronouncement actually accurately reflected the
detailed rules with regards to cross-London Tube transfers (and indeed
ATOC's contract with LU for the provision of this service), given the
fact that if the publicity were to be literally interpreted it would
seem to give a 'free' journey across much of the Underground network,
not just the bits in central London.

In your example of getting off at Clapham Jn on a Victoria (actually
London Terminals) ticket, that's no problem at all.

"Mizter T" wrote in message
...

In your example of getting off at Clapham Jn on a Victoria (actually
London Terminals) ticket, that's no problem at all.

Ah, OK thanks. Understood.

Ian

In message
, at
04:16:35 on Wed, 18 Feb 2009, Mizter T remarked:
In your example of getting off at Clapham Jn on a Victoria (actually
London Terminals) ticket, that's no problem at all.

But it wouldn't be allowed on a Megatrain, or (if they exist on that
route) classic AP ticket.

"How can they enforce that" I hear someone saying... well when they
bought the ticket they agreed not to stop short, and if they do the
entire ticket is invalid. So they'll (in theory if caught) have to buy a
completely new ticket for the journey they did make.
--
Roland Perry