tim..... wrote:
"zen83237" wrote in message
...

And what about the trains that used to come from the Great Northern
lines.

These were removed before my time. My Baker from the period just
before BS was closed, shows this route as not possible at that time.

Really? It would still be possible today. Head up the GN, turn left at
Finsbury Park, up Canonbury curve, then east down the North London line and
branch off at Dalston up to Broad Street.

That's why they were proposing Finsbury Park as a terminus for some ELLX
services at one time.

On 31/3/09 23:07, in article , "Jack
Taylor" wrote:

tim..... wrote:
"zen83237" wrote in message
...

And what about the trains that used to come from the Great Northern
lines.

These were removed before my time. My Baker from the period just
before BS was closed, shows this route as not possible at that time.

Really? It would still be possible today. Head up the GN, turn left at
Finsbury Park, up Canonbury curve, then east down the North London line and
branch off at Dalston up to Broad Street.

That's why they were proposing Finsbury Park as a terminus for some ELLX
services at one time.

The line was closed for a time while the track through the tunnel was
singled to provide clearance for electrification, but I can't remember when
this was.

On Tue, 31 Mar 2009 23:07:02 +0100
"Jack Taylor" wrote:
That's why they were proposing Finsbury Park as a terminus for some ELLX
services at one time.

A missed opportunity if ever there was one. It could have provided a cross
platform link for FCC & ECML passengers to docklands and the south london
lines and vice verca. Its utterly absurd this wasn't forced through.

B2003

On Apr 1, 10:27*am, wrote:
On Tue, 31 Mar 2009 23:07:02 +0100

"Jack Taylor" wrote:
That's why they were proposing Finsbury Park as a terminus for some ELLX
services at one time.

A missed opportunity if ever there was one. It could have provided a cross
platform link for FCC & ECML passengers to docklands and the south london
lines and vice verca. Its utterly absurd this wasn't forced through.


There is a fundamental issue with this though that many people simply
fail to comprehend. IIRC this stretch of the NLL is currently three
tracks, but it will become four tracks. The ELLX trains will run on
the southern pair of tracks at this point, with the NLL passenger
trains and freight on the northern pair. The Canonbury Curve tunnel is
to the north of the NLL alignment - if ELLX trains were to run up to
Canonbury they'd have to cross the NLL passenger and freight tracks on
the level, i.e. a massively conflicting movement.

The only way to deal with it would be some sort of grade separated
junction to take the ELLX trains over the NLL tracks to the Canonbury
curve. That's *far* easier said than done - the NLL alignment here is
in a cutting surrounded by housing on both sides, and there's a bridge
carrying Highbury Grove to contend with as well. I suppose a grade
separated junction might have been possible in the stretch between
Wallace Road and Highbury Grove where the cutting is a bit wider (this
is where Canonbury station is sited). Nonetheless it'd be far from an
easy task.

Anyway, you speak about it being "utterly absurd this wasn't forced
through" - well the fact the whole ELLX project has actually happened
is amazing enough. Trying to add a very expensive extra such as a
grade separated junction here was likely seen as being beyond the
realms of the possible.

On Wed, 1 Apr 2009 03:57:17 -0700 (PDT)
Mizter T wrote:
to the north of the NLL alignment - if ELLX trains were to run up to
Canonbury they'd have to cross the NLL passenger and freight tracks on
the level, i.e. a massively conflicting movement.

Last time I used the NLL I didn't notice trains queuing up on the tracks.
More like people queueing up waiting for anything to show up so I can't
see how a train once every 10 or 15 minutes or so crossing a few other
tracks would cause much if any conflict. Even if the full service couldn't
have run as far as finsbury I don't see why a reduced service couldn't have
continued from highbury. Surely better than the inevitable sardine
situation thats going to happen on the Moorgate and Victoria lines once the
northern ELLX opens.

Anyway, you speak about it being "utterly absurd this wasn't forced
through" - well the fact the whole ELLX project has actually happened
is amazing enough. Trying to add a very expensive extra such as a

True, it does seem to be one occasion when the tight fisted bean counters
at the treasury weren't paying attention for once and this project slipped
through.

B2003

wrote in message ...
On Wed, 1 Apr 2009 03:57:17 -0700 (PDT)
Mizter T wrote:
to the north of the NLL alignment - if ELLX trains were to run up to
Canonbury they'd have to cross the NLL passenger and freight tracks on
the level, i.e. a massively conflicting movement.

Last time I used the NLL I didn't notice trains queuing up on the tracks.

you might not have noticed it, but there are few spare paths.

Certainly not enough to "waste" 4 each hour making a conflicting movement

tim

"tim....." wrote in message
...

wrote in message ...

Last time I used the NLL I didn't notice trains queuing up on the tracks.

you might not have noticed it, but there are few spare paths.

Certainly not enough to "waste" 4 each hour making a conflicting movement


And of course the situation on the 2010/11 NLL pair of tracks will be
somewhat different with 8tph plus freight, whereas now it is 4 tph plus
freight on 3 or 4 tracks.

Paul S

On 1 Apr, 12:38, wrote:
Last time I used the NLL I didn't notice trains queuing up on the tracks.
More like people queueing up waiting for anything to show up so I can't
see how a train once every 10 or 15 minutes or so crossing a few other
tracks would cause much if any conflict.

Trains in both directions need to cross each track, so it's 8
timetable slots per hour on each track, and you the gap on each NLL
tracks has to occur at the same moment to let the ELL train cross. NLL
peak frequency will son be 8 trains per hour in each direction, and I
believe freight slots will still be required during peak hours. So
that's a massive timetabling and reliability nightmare. Not
impossible, but the alternative it had to compete against (and the one
they chose) was an ELL that's completely segregated at its northern
end, which is going to make it and the NLL much more reliable.

(and I can't see it could have been made cross-platform at Finsbury
Park, at least not in both directions)

Surely better than the inevitable sardine
situation thats going to happen on the Moorgate and Victoria lines once the
northern ELLX opens.

I think you're overestimating its appeal.

U

Mizter T wrote:

There is a fundamental issue with this though that many people simply
fail to comprehend. IIRC this stretch of the NLL is currently three
tracks, but it will become four tracks. The ELLX trains will run on
the southern pair of tracks at this point, with the NLL passenger
trains and freight on the northern pair. The Canonbury Curve tunnel is
to the north of the NLL alignment - if ELLX trains were to run up to
Canonbury they'd have to cross the NLL passenger and freight tracks on
the level, i.e. a massively conflicting movement.

The only way to deal with it would be some sort of grade separated
junction to take the ELLX trains over the NLL tracks to the Canonbury
curve. That's *far* easier said than done - the NLL alignment here is
in a cutting surrounded by housing on both sides, and there's a bridge
carrying Highbury Grove to contend with as well. I suppose a grade
separated junction might have been possible in the stretch between
Wallace Road and Highbury Grove where the cutting is a bit wider (this
is where Canonbury station is sited). Nonetheless it'd be far from an
easy task.

Anyway, you speak about it being "utterly absurd this wasn't forced
through" - well the fact the whole ELLX project has actually happened
is amazing enough. Trying to add a very expensive extra such as a
grade separated junction here was likely seen as being beyond the
realms of the possible.

I would have liked like the NLL (passenger and freight) to have been
diverted between Canonbury and Gospel Oak to run via Finsbury Park, Parkland
Walk, Crouch Hill and Upper Holloway. Let the ELL completely take over
Canonbury - Camden Road - Gospel Oak. The NLL would be much more useful at
Finsbury Park than the ELL, since it would allow eastward and westward
connections from the Cambridge trains and Piccadilly Line. But maybe this
would put too many trains through Crouch Hill.

"Mizter T" wrote...
There is a fundamental issue with this though that many people
simply fail to comprehend. IIRC this stretch of the NLL is
currently three tracks, but it will become four tracks. The
ELLX trains will run on the southern pair of tracks at this point,
with the NLL passenger trains and freight on the northern pair.
The Canonbury Curve tunnel is to the north of the NLL
alignment - if ELLX trains were to run up to Canonbury they'd
have to cross the NLL passenger and freight tracks on the
level, i.e. a massively conflicting movement. The only way to
deal with it would be some sort of grade separated junction to
take the ELLX trains over the NLL tracks to the Canonbury
curve. That's *far* easier said than done - the NLL alignment
here is in a cutting surrounded by housing on both sides, and
there's a bridge carrying Highbury Grove to contend with as
well. I suppose a grade separated junction might have been
possible in the stretch between Wallace Road and Highbury
Grove where the cutting is a bit wider (this is where Canonbury
station is sited). Nonetheless it'd be far from an easy task.

An alternative plan that was floated but never researched in detail (AFAIK)
was to extend the DLR to Finsbury Park, using the Canonbury Curve - grade
separation for that would have been much cheaper. Such a scheme would be
impossible now, as the 'overground' will need all the capacity it can get
around there, leaving no room for a DLR track in the area.


--

Andrew

"She plays the tuba.
It is the only instrument capable
of imitating a distress call."