On 12 Apr, 19:07, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Sun, 12 Apr 2009, Paul Scott wrote:
wrote in message
...

I worry that it will be a case of "out of the frying-pan into a storm
in a tea-cup". For all its faults the current Circle is relatively easy
for strangers/tourists to interpret. Somehow the proposed operating
pattern seems to take us into a dimension beyond the normal capacity of
the underground map to portray effectively.

Surely all it needs is a 'linked double circle symbol' [whatever it's
proper name is] - like at Baker St or West Hampstead. The upper circle
would have a pair of through pink and yellow lines, and the lower circle
would have terminating green and yellow lines. Job done...

Indeed.

And they should rename it the Spiral line so as not to give the wrong
idea.

I rest my case as far as the confusion potential is concerned. A
further concern is that by introducing constant interworking of the
Circle and H & C lines any out of course delays anywhere on either
line are liable to infect both lines to a much greater extent than
would happen at the moment.

--
gordon

On Sun, 12 Apr 2009, wrote:

On 12 Apr, 19:07, Tom Anderson wrote:
On Sun, 12 Apr 2009, Paul Scott wrote:
wrote in message
...

I worry that it will be a case of "out of the frying-pan into a storm
in a tea-cup". For all its faults the current Circle is relatively easy
for strangers/tourists to interpret. Somehow the proposed operating
pattern seems to take us into a dimension beyond the normal capacity of
the underground map to portray effectively.

Surely all it needs is a 'linked double circle symbol' [whatever it's
proper name is] - like at Baker St or West Hampstead. The upper circle
would have a pair of through pink and yellow lines, and the lower circle
would have terminating green and yellow lines. Job done...

Indeed.

And they should rename it the Spiral line so as not to give the wrong
idea.

I rest my case as far as the confusion potential is concerned. A further
concern is that by introducing constant interworking of the Circle and H
& C lines any out of course delays anywhere on either line are liable to
infect both lines to a much greater extent than would happen at the
moment.

I don't know. The Circle and H&C already share enough track, and are
frequent enough, that they pollute each other perfectly well.

tom

--
Information is not knowledge. -- Albert Einstein

wrote:

A further concern is that by introducing constant interworking of the
Circle and H & C lines any out of course delays anywhere on either
line are liable to infect both lines to a much greater extent than
would happen at the moment.

'Constant interworking' would suggest to me trains arriving at Hammersmith
as H&C, and leaving as Circle (and vice versa), has there ever been any
suggestion that this might happen?

Is it actually necessary for the changes to work - presumably it depends
what the planned layover time is at Hammersmith?

Paul S

On Mon, 13 Apr 2009, Paul Scott wrote:

wrote:

A further concern is that by introducing constant interworking of the
Circle and H & C lines any out of course delays anywhere on either
line are liable to infect both lines to a much greater extent than
would happen at the moment.

'Constant interworking' would suggest to me trains arriving at
Hammersmith as H&C, and leaving as Circle (and vice versa), has there
ever been any suggestion that this might happen?

Er, yes. Under the teacup plan, the Circle and H&C will be merged into a
single service - there will no longer *be* H&C or
Circle-as-we-understand-it-now. Or is that not what you meant?

tom

--
Information is not knowledge. -- Albert Einstein

On Apr 13, 9:02 am, Tom Anderson wrote:
Er, yes. Under the teacup plan, the Circle and H&C will be merged into a
single service - there will no longer *be* H&C or
Circle-as-we-understand-it-now. Or is that not what you meant?

Not true. There will still be trains from Hammersmith that go to
Whitechapel. The trains from Hammersmith that go to Edgware Road via
Aldgate will be in *addition* to those existing trains, thus
increasing the frequency on the Hammersmith branch. I expect they'll
be branded "Circle line", whilst there's no reason to think the
"Hammersmith & City" branding will go away, either...

--
Abi

Tom Anderson wrote:
On Mon, 13 Apr 2009, Paul Scott wrote:

'Constant interworking' would suggest to me trains arriving at
Hammersmith as H&C, and leaving as Circle (and vice versa), has there
ever been any suggestion that this might happen?

Er, yes. Under the teacup plan, the Circle and H&C will be merged
into a single service - there will no longer *be* H&C or
Circle-as-we-understand-it-now. Or is that not what you meant?


I meant the exact opposite in fact. As far as I can see from the LU
announcements and previous discussions, they have never said the services
will be combined. ISTM they only announced that the Circle would be
extended to Hammersmith, and terminate at Edware Rd.
There will surely still be two lines shown on the map, ie pink
from Hammersmith to Barking and yellow from Hammersmith to
Edgware Rd via the Circle.

I see no fundamental reason then why alternate trains leaving Hammersmith
won't run dedicated to H&C or Circle, and be diagrammed to stay on those
routes all day, although they can obviously be changed in time of
disruption.

Paul S

On Apr 13, 2:56 pm, Abigail Brady wrote:

On Apr 13, 9:02 am, Tom Anderson wrote:

Er, yes. Under the teacup plan, the Circle and H&C will be merged into a
single service - there will no longer *be* H&C or
Circle-as-we-understand-it-now. Or is that not what you meant?

Not true. There will still be trains from Hammersmith that go to
Whitechapel. The trains from Hammersmith that go to Edgware Road via
Aldgate will be in *addition* to those existing trains, thus
increasing the frequency on the Hammersmith branch. I expect they'll
be branded "Circle line", whilst there's no reason to think the
"Hammersmith & City" branding will go away, either...


Indeed (pay attention at the back of the class!).

Here's the March press release about the extension of the Circle line:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/medi...tre/11300.aspx

Mizter T wrote:

Indeed (pay attention at the back of the class!).

Here's the March press release about the extension of the Circle line:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/medi...tre/11300.aspx


Needless to say the early March discussion here in u.t.l happily quoted
just about every media story except the TfL one, which IIRC appeared after
all the fuss had died down ...

Paul

On Apr 13, 3:21 pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

Mizter T wrote:
Indeed (pay attention at the back of the class!).

Here's the March press release about the extension of the Circle line:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/medi...tre/11300.aspx

Needless to say the early March discussion here in u.t.l happily quoted
just about every media story except the TfL one, which IIRC appeared after
all the fuss had died down ...


Perhaps the internal staff briefings happened before the public
announcement, and were then leaked to the press (FSVO 'leak' - it's
hardly some massive secret enterprise!). If the media had been
informed first then the staff would've got understandably annoyed.

On Mon, 13 Apr 2009, Abigail Brady wrote:

On Apr 13, 9:02 am, Tom Anderson wrote:
Er, yes. Under the teacup plan, the Circle and H&C will be merged into a
single service - there will no longer *be* H&C or
Circle-as-we-understand-it-now. Or is that not what you meant?

Not true. There will still be trains from Hammersmith that go to
Whitechapel. The trains from Hammersmith that go to Edgware Road via
Aldgate will be in *addition* to those existing trains, thus increasing
the frequency on the Hammersmith branch. I expect they'll be branded
"Circle line", whilst there's no reason to think the "Hammersmith &
City" branding will go away, either...

Okay, i was completely confused here.

There was also the idea of the H&C and Met swapping eastern termini, which
would leave the H&C terminating at Aldgate, but even that doesn't mean
merging the H&C and Circle. I think i was just extrapolating from there
somehow.

I think my idea's better, anyway.

tom

--
Information is not knowledge. -- Albert Einstein