[x-posted to uk.transport.london]
[original thread on uk.railway]

On Apr 8, 10:02*pm, Mark Morton wrote:
What are the rules on how to get across London to a station that has
both London Underground and National Rail services.

Today I went, from Leeds, to Kenton, which is on both the Bakerloo Line,
and on the Watford DC Line between Euston and Watford Junction. I went
Kings Cross-walk down Euston Road-Euston-Kenton, on a Leeds-London
ticket with a Travelcard.

If, in future, I had a Leeds-Kenton NR ticket, would I *have* to take
the NR route from Euston, or could I have gone on the underground from
KX to Kenton?


Such a ticket would be issued with cross-London Tube transfer
included, as indicated by the Maltese cross symbol (or is it better
described as a dagger?) in the route field of the ticket. This allows
for transfer by LU between the London termini and other designated
stations.

Such a ticket would obviously get you on the Tube between KXSP [1] and
Euston - though as you already know this is perfectly walkable - and
then onwards on the DC Line from Euston to Kenton.

However, here's the clever bit. The designated list of stations
between which cross-London transfer applies [2] is actually quite
generous and allows for all sorts of weird and wonderful
possibilities, some of which are even quite sensible and useful. And
Queen's Park is on the list. So the cross-London transfer element of
your journey would get you between KXSP and Queen's Park on LU (via
whatever route you choose to get you on the Bakerloo line to get to
QP).

From Queen's Park to Kenton, the normal rail element of your ticket
would kick back in, and here's the good bit - ticketing on the DC Line
between Queen's Park and Harrow & Wealdstone is interavailable, so you
can use the National Rail element of your ticket on either the LU
Bakerloo line or on an overground train. So if you're on a Bakerloo
line train that goes all the way to H&W, you can stay on it past
Queen's Park right up to Kenton.

(There is some funky ticketing stuff with regards to the DC Line now
being part of TfL's London Overground network the details of which I
can't recall, but essentially they all work in passengers favour -
e.g. LU fares are now accepted for all LO journeys, at least as far as
Hatch End [the last station in zone 6] - however this is irrelevant to
Mark's query.)

-----
[1] KXSP being King's Cross St. Pancras Underground station

[2] The list of stations between which cross-London Tube transfer is
valid is available on this National Rail webpage - click on "show
Station List" to, er, see the list:
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/london/

Mizter T wrote:

lots of useful information, snipped - thanks for that

[2] The list of stations between which cross-London Tube transfer is
valid is available on this National Rail webpage - click on "show
Station List" to, er, see the list:
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/london/

I wonder if they're going to add Woolwich Arsenal to the list? If
Lewisham is on there, I can't see any reason why WA can't be? West
Horndon to Plumstead via West Ham, the Jubilee line to Canning Town and
the DLR to Woolwich would be quicker?

On Apr 9, 6:10*pm, Mark Morton wrote:

Mizter T wrote:

lots of useful information, snipped - thanks for that

[2] The list of stations between which cross-London Tube transfer is
valid is available on this National Rail webpage - click on "show
Station List" to, er, see the list:
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/london/

I wonder if they're going to add Woolwich Arsenal to the list? *If
Lewisham is on there, I can't see any reason why WA can't be? *West
Horndon to Plumstead via West Ham, the Jubilee line to Canning Town and
the DLR to Woolwich would be quicker?

I'd think it would be quicker, yes - and it'd be even quicker once the
DLR's 'Stratford International Extension' opens in mid-2010 - this
will be a new route along the reused alignment formerly belonging to
the NLL between Stratford and Canning Town.

With regards to whether Woolwich Arsenal (WA) might join the list - it
certainly should, for the obvious reasons you state. It only opened in
January, so there might be a lag between it being it opening and being
added to the list - though why the red-tape couldn't have been dealt
with beforehand so it got added to the list on opening is another
question.

I dare say one of the issues is that of who deals with that list -
i.e. TfL or ATOC. I dare say it's ATOC's baby, with ATOC/RSP paying a
set amount to TfL every year/month/whatever for the cross-London
transfer ticketing facility. With ATOC one doesn't have to use a lot
of imagination to see the potential for acute institutional inertia,
especially on somewhat arcane matters such as this! (The inclusion of
the Lewisham extension may have been the result of some NSE-era
thinking persisting at ATOC and the relevant TOCs, though I don't know
when the various DLR stations were added to the list.)

The other thing to consider is who would be pushing for the inclusion
of WA to the list. As I said, I doubt TfL would be as I reckon it's
not 'their' list (and I dare say they might want some more money from
ATOC/RSP if it was added). Additionally, TfL's primary concern is for
intra-London journeys - and multi-modal (i.e. mainline rail and Tube/
DLR) journeys thereof are basically dealt with by Travelcards, Oyster
PAYG (if valid on the relevant rail route) or otherwise the new-ish
"Tube/Train" (internal name) / "through fares" tickets [1] which are
basically the most one pays for a single journey that involves both
mainline rail and Tube/DLR within the zones (1-6).

In other words rail journeys wholly within Greater London no longer
involve the conventional cross-London transfer ticketing facility -
this only comes into play when one or other of the destinations is
outside of London (i.e. zones 1-6).

Therefore the impetus for getting stations added to the list must
surely come from the TOCs themselves - ATOC after all is only a tool
of the TOCs and presumably won't do things 'off their own back'.
Therefore I reckon it's down to Southeastern, c2c and NXEA to push for
the inclusion of Woolwich Arsenal on the list and make it happen. I
dare say it's unlikely to be high up their agenda - many passengers
from outside London will likely be using 'out-boundary' Travelcards
already if they want to make multi-modal journeys (if commuters) or
will choose such a ticket by default (if more occasional travellers).
And the whole market for many such journeys is probably considered as
fairly insignificant, with people travelling from Kent to Essex and
v.v. more likely to drive across/under the Thames at the Dartford
Crossing, whilst those doing longer journeys are probably considered
more likely to go into into central London and transfer between the
London termini.

So, unfortunately I can see lots of reasons for unresponsiveness and
indifference on the part of ATOC, the TOCs and TfL, and am therefore
not particularly hopeful that things will change. However the list
does need some attention paid to it - the new Shepherd's Bush WLL
station is not on it and should be, so perhaps if that situation gets
looked at then so might the WA situation. Maybe.

-----
[1] "National Rail through fares" [on the TfL website]
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/faresa...ares/2892.aspx

Mizter T wrote:

So, unfortunately I can see lots of reasons for unresponsiveness and
indifference on the part of ATOC, the TOCs and TfL, and am therefore
not particularly hopeful that things will change. However the list
does need some attention paid to it - the new Shepherd's Bush WLL
station is not on it and should be, so perhaps if that situation gets
looked at then so might the WA situation. Maybe.


You've just reminded me of a thought I had a while back, when I think we
were discussing 'not London' NR fares that allowed a routeing via the WLL
(eg Basingstoke to Milton Keynes that I used a few weeks ago). Has it ever
been reported yet if similar fares will be introduced for journeys from say
Kent to Essex, bypassing central London via the ELL?

Or am I wrongly assuming this part of LO will be included in the NR
ticketing scheme...

Paul S

Paul S