I know that a Watford Junc to London Terminals ticket is valid to Vauxhall
but can I use it to Shepherds Bush.

Kevin

[x-posted to uk.railway]
[original thread on uk.transport.london]

On Apr 19, 9:34*pm, "Zen83237" wrote:
I know that a Watford Junc to London Terminals ticket is valid to Vauxhall
but can I use it to Shepherds Bush.

Kevin

I have previously come across this notion that Vauxhall is a valid
"London Terminal" for journeys from the West London Line, but I'm
really not convinced by it. I readily admit that I have not delved
into the mysterious depths of the Routing Guide, but this proposition
just seems to be pretty counter-intuitive to me.

On 20 Apr, 12:39, Mizter T wrote:
I have previously come across this notion that Vauxhall is a valid
"London Terminal" for journeys from the West London Line, but I'm
really not convinced by it. I readily admit that I have not delved
into the mysterious depths of the Routing Guide, but this proposition
just seems to be pretty counter-intuitive to me.

Vauxhall is a London Terminal, but only if there's a valid route.
Which there isn't from Watford Junction - Euston is your only option,
which also excludes Shepherd's Bush.

All West London Line stations have Clapham Junction as a Routeing
Point, and due to zonal fares is acceptable as a Routeing Point.
Therefore all routes from Clapham Junction to London Terminals are
valid, which gets you to all former Southern Region terminals.
Willesden Junction is also a Routeing Point, which gets you to Euston.

U

On Apr 20, 1:16*pm, Mr Thant
wrote:

On 20 Apr, 12:39, Mizter T wrote:

I have previously come across this notion that Vauxhall is a valid
"London Terminal" for journeys from the West London Line, but I'm
really not convinced by it. I readily admit that I have not delved
into the mysterious depths of the Routing Guide, but this proposition
just seems to be pretty counter-intuitive to me.

Vauxhall is a London Terminal, but only if there's a valid route.
Which there isn't from Watford Junction - Euston is your only option,
which also excludes Shepherd's Bush.

All West London Line stations have Clapham Junction as a Routeing
Point, and due to zonal fares is acceptable as a Routeing Point.
Therefore all routes from Clapham Junction to London Terminals are
valid, which gets you to all former Southern Region terminals.
Willesden Junction is also a Routeing Point, which gets you to Euston.

U

Thanks for that.

By the by when I said "journeys from the West London Line" what I
actually meant was journeys via the WLL that originate further
afield, i.e. Harrow & Wealdstone, Watford Jn, Milton Keynes etc, as
opposed to journeys that actually start at a station on the WLL, e.g.
Shepherd's Bush or Kensington Olympia.

On 20 Apr, 13:42, Mizter T wrote:
I have previously come across this notion that Vauxhall is a valid
"London Terminal" for journeys from the West London Line, but I'm
really not convinced by it. I readily admit that I have not delved
into the mysterious depths of the Routing Guide, but this proposition
just seems to be pretty counter-intuitive to me.

Vauxhall is a London Terminal, but only if there's a valid route.
Which there isn't from Watford Junction - Euston is your only option,
which also excludes Shepherd's Bush.

All West London Line stations have Clapham Junction as a Routeing
Point, and due to zonal fares is acceptable as a Routeing Point.
Therefore all routes from Clapham Junction to London Terminals are
valid, which gets you to all former Southern Region terminals.
Willesden Junction is also a Routeing Point, which gets you to Euston.

U

Thanks for that.

By the by when I said "journeys from the West London Line" what I
actually *meant was journeys via the WLL that originate further
afield, i.e. Harrow & Wealdstone, Watford Jn, Milton Keynes etc, as
opposed to journeys that actually start at a station on the WLL, e.g.
Shepherd's Bush or Kensington Olympia.

Vauxhall's routing point is Clapham Junction, which is a destination
on map LM. A Bletchley/Watford - London ticket should presumably be
valid to Vauxhall via CLJ, as the valid route is LM, and that covers
CLJ.

I use a LBZ - SPB season ticket almost every day, so asked National
Rail enquiries.

I'm shortly renewing my Leighton Buzzard - Euston (rail only) annual
season ticket. While this is my normal route, I'd like the option to
use the new station at Shepherds Bush in future.

I've asked guards on the Southern service from Watford and they've
told me my ticket is valid, however I'm completely confident, and
would prefer to avoid any future arguments - I don't want to be on the
wrong end of a penalty fare.

My ticket is valid from Leighton Buzzard to London Terminals. I
believe London Terminals includes Vauxhall, and the shortest route
from Leighton Buzzard to Vauxhall is via Kensington Olympia. When I
check the online journey planner for "Leighton Buzzard to Vauxhall via
Kensington Olympia", it tells me it's a valid route, and tries to sell
me a single to London Terminals, at £15.90 (same as a single to
Euston).

I think this means my season ticket is valid on this route. However a
ticket from "Leighton Buzzard" to "Shepherds Bush" or "Kensington
Olympia" is £16.70.

As my season ticket is valid for a break of journey anywhere along a
valid route, and the ticket to Vauxhall via Kensington Olympia passes
through Shepherds Bush, I'd assume my ticket would be valid for
alighting at either of those stations. Is this correct?

The response was positive:

Thank you for you eMail regarding using a Season Ticket.

If you were travelling direct into London the 7 Day Standard Season
would only be valid to London Euston as this ticket does not include
use of the London Underground. ***However according to the information
that we hold if you travel via Kensington Olympia you will be allowed
to use this ticket to Vauxhall.***

A break of Journey is allowed on both portions of this ticket as long
it is within the validity of the ticket. For further ticket
information please select the following link:

If ATOC say it's

Vauxhall is a London Terminal, but only if there's a valid route.
Which there isn't from Watford Junction - Euston is your only option,
which also excludes Shepherd's Bush.



Question then. When Broad Street was open it would have been a valid London
Terminal from Watford Junction. When it closed peak trains were diverted by
Graham Road curve of course which would have made Liverpool Street a valid
London Terminal,

The thought at the time was that you could reach Moorgate (NC) from Highbury
and Islington as an alternative to Broad St/Liverpool Street. Is that not
still the case?


And if you wanted to be pedantic what about Watford Jct, Willesden Jct,
West Hamspstead INL) West Hampstead (Thameslink) St Pancras and Farringdon

On Apr 20, 9:05*am, "Paul Rigg" wrote:
Vauxhall is a London Terminal, but only if there's a valid route.
Which there isn't from Watford Junction - Euston is your only option,
which also excludes Shepherd's Bush.

The key anomaly is that Vauxhall is a London Terminal but is NOT a
London Group Routeing Point. It has London as a routeing point but
also has Clapham Junction. According to map OV, which controls both
flows, the only valid route from Watford Junction to London Group
Routeing Point is directly into Euston -- but from Watford to Clapham
Junction (and hence Vauxhall) map OV takes you down the West London
Line.

However, given that the single fare to Clapham Junction is higher than
that to London, you're not actually allowed to use Clapham Junction as
a Routeing Point. London would be the only Routeing Point for
Vauxhall.

Double however, it's clear that the shortest rail-only route to
Vauxhall is on the direct train to Clapham Junction. (But NOT via
Willesden on the Overground, which is fractionally further). Which
might make Shepherd's Bush suddenly valid, but then you'd have to
start asking hard questions like what the shortest route to Fenchurch
Street is, and whether your ticket is suddenly valid via Upper
Holloway and Barking. Which leads me to suspect that there in fact
isn't a valid fare from Leighton Buzzard to Vauxhall other than one to
London U1. (Even though NRES were prepared to sell you one.)

So to summarize, I think it's technically invalid, but others may well
differ. I think most people who sometimes travel to Euston and
sometimes to Shepherd's Bush would buy a Travelcard anyway...

Question then. *When Broad Street was open it would have been a valid London
Terminal from Watford Junction. *When it closed peak trains were diverted by
Graham Road curve of course which would have made Liverpool Street a valid
London Terminal,

At the time. But those services ceased before routeing was formalized
and 'Any Reasonable Route' became 'Any Permitted Route'.

The thought at the time was that you could reach Moorgate (NC) from Highbury
and Islington as an alternative to Broad St/Liverpool Street. *Is that not
still the case?

Not any more, though it would very probably have been a Reasonable
Route back in the day. Moorgate is a member of London Group, and
doesn't appear on map OV.

And if you wanted to be pedantic *what about Watford Jct, Willesden Jct,
West Hamspstead INL) West Hampstead (Thameslink) St Pancras and Farringdon

That wouldn't be valid anyway -- the moment you hit Farringdon you're
beyond the validity of a London Terminals ticket.

On 20 Apr, 15:40, Alistair Bell wrote:
The key anomaly is that Vauxhall is a London Terminal but is NOT a
London Group Routeing Point. It has London as a routeing point but
also has Clapham Junction. According to map OV, which controls both
flows, the only valid route from Watford Junction to London Group
Routeing Point is directly into Euston -- but from Watford to Clapham
Junction (and hence Vauxhall) map OV takes you down the West London
Line.

That's a good point.

Double however, it's clear that the shortest rail-only route to
Vauxhall is on the direct train to Clapham Junction. (But NOT via
Willesden on the Overground, which is fractionally further). Which
might make Shepherd's Bush suddenly valid, but then you'd have to
start asking hard questions like what the shortest route to Fenchurch
Street is

I don't think you can do that - it's the shortest route to a London
Terminal (ie the nearest one), with allowances for journeys through
London Bridge etc. Otherwise - as you mention - it starts getting
silly. Not that this is codified anywhere.

That wouldn't be valid anyway -- the moment you hit Farringdon you're
beyond the validity of a London Terminals ticket.

Not if you've switched to the tube at KXSP (and assuming Highbury-
Moorgate is valid, which it isn't).

U

On 20 Apr, 15:40, Alistair Bell wrote:

So to summarize, I think it's technically invalid, but others may well
differ. I think most people who sometimes travel to Euston and
sometimes to Shepherd's Bush would buy a Travelcard anyway...

Most probably. But last time I used Bletchley ticket office, I'm
almost certain I saw an email from ATOC on display (not necessarily
intentionally, but you can see the notice boards from the windows)
that pretty much said that RJIS was showing Waterloo as valid on a
London Terminals ticket via Kenny O, and so that it *was* considered
valid! (And presumably by extension Vauxhall).

Interesting...

Neil

In uk.transport.london Alistair Bell wrote:
Question then. ?When Broad Street was open it would have been a valid
London Terminal from Watford Junction. ?When it closed peak trains were
diverted by Graham Road curve of course which would have made Liverpool
Street a valid London Terminal,

At the time. But those services ceased before routeing was formalized
and 'Any Reasonable Route' became 'Any Permitted Route'.

Tickets to London used to be to 'London (SR)' from Surrey/Sussex/Kent
directions. What would have applied to the north of London, and would it
have divided the terminals you could have travelled to?

Theo