On Apr 23, 4:40*pm, trundleage wrote:
And copying verbatim as happens here is obviously not plagiarism. If
you want analysis, then you're going to have to pay for it

The comment re "potential plagiarism" relates to Mr Thant's suspicion
that Transport Briefing reworked some of his own material which
appeared on his now mothballed blog, London Connections, into a piece
it presented as its own.

Anyway, I'm not getting involved in this any further.

"Mizter T" wrote in message
...

A few follow on thoughts about Shoreditch High Street (SHS) being put
in zone 1. One thing I'd failed to include in my considerations above
is the rail-only season ticket. Therefore, were SHS to have been in
zone 2, then the calculation for price-conscious City commuters may
have been between a rail-only season from say Sydenham to London
Terminals (i.e. London Bridge/ Cannon Street) and either a season
Travelcard (covering whatever zones were needed but excluding
expensive z1) or Oyster PAYG single fares, whichever is the cheaper.

From further out it makes a huge difference. I have been commuting from
Hove/Brighton to Victoria for a number of years, and am contemplating the
possibility of travelling to Hanger Lane every day instead. The current
annual season ticket prices are roughly:

Hove to London Terminals £3,500 (current ticket)
Hove to Zones 1-6 £4,000
Hove to Zones 2-6 £3,000 (using Overground from CLJ to SPB)

The other thought I've just had is whether or not SHS would be
classified as a 'London Terminal' - which is particularly relevant for
journeys from south London, as it could mean that commuters could
choose between heading to London Bridge/Cannon Street or SHS to get to
the City.

On the basis of the above figures I would say this would make a lot of
sense - it would work a bit like City Thameslink does for journeys from the
south.

I think I used the ELL once, when I was working near Finsbury Square and my
train from the coast shuddered to a halt at New Cross without much prospect
of going further any time soon. I got to work .... eventually.

D A Stocks

David A Stocks wrote:

current annual season ticket prices are roughly:

Hove to London Terminals £3,500 (current ticket)
Hove to Zones 1-6 £4,000
Hove to Zones 2-6 £3,000 (using Overground from CLJ to SPB)


FWIW,

apples-vs-oranges
Mobility BahnCard 100 costs EUR 3,500 for 2nd class or EUR 5,900 for 1st
...
Apart from a few exceptions (e.g. DB AutoZug), it allows you to make any
number of journeys on any DB train, on selected buses and rail lines run
by many other transport companies. A supplement is payable for ICE
Sprinter and CityNightLine trains.
...
BahnCard holders are also entitled to a 25 per cent discount on the
normal fare for the foreign section of the journey in 29 European countries.
http://www.deutschebahn.com/site/bah...ahn__card.html
/apples-vs-oranges


--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

On Apr 23, 6:08*pm, "David A Stocks" wrote:

"Mizter T" wrote:

A few follow on thoughts about Shoreditch High Street (SHS) being put
in zone 1. One thing I'd failed to include in my considerations above
is the rail-only season ticket. Therefore, were SHS to have been in
zone 2, then the calculation for price-conscious City commuters may
have been between a rail-only season from say Sydenham to London
Terminals (i.e. London Bridge/ Cannon Street) and either a season
Travelcard (covering whatever zones were needed but excluding
expensive z1) or Oyster PAYG single fares, whichever is the cheaper.

From further out it makes a huge difference. I have been commuting from
Hove/Brighton to Victoria for a number of years, and am contemplating the
possibility of travelling to Hanger Lane every day instead. The current
annual season ticket prices are roughly:

Hove to London Terminals £3,500 (current ticket)
Hove to Zones 1-6 * * * *£4,000
Hove to Zones 2-6 * * * *£3,000 (using Overground from CLJ to SPB)

The relative savings afforded by avoiding zone 1 for journeys within
London are perhaps comparable - again these are prices for annual
seasons:

Purley* to London Terminals £1,448
Zones 1-6 Travelcard £1,904
Zones 2-6 Travelcard £1,296

(*Purley price applies to any zone 6 Southern station to 'London
Terminals')

It certainly pays to avoid zone 1, as it does with 'London
Terminals'.

(Even just looking at off-peak Day Travelcards, the z2-6 at £5.10 is
almost a third less than the z1-6 at £7.50.)


The other thought I've just had is whether or not SHS would be
classified as a 'London Terminal' - which is particularly relevant for
journeys from south London, as it could mean that commuters could
choose between heading to London Bridge/Cannon Street or SHS to get to
the City.

On the basis of the above figures I would say this would make a lot of
sense - it would work a bit like City Thameslink does for journeys from the
south.

Hmm, I don't think that necessarily follows. It would undoubtedly be
very useful, no doubt. However as the letters that London Travelwatch
have published demonstrate, there was clear concern about revenue
being abstracted from the TOCs and heading to TfL/LO (via the ELLX) -
hence why SHS is going to be a zone 1 station rather than a zone 2
station - the fear of the TOCs being that pax would transfer to the
ELLX to benefit from the cheaper fares. DfT agreed with this concern,
and therefore stipulated that SHS would be in zone 1 (as part of the
funding deal for ELLX phase 2b).

*If* SHS was to be a 'London Terminal' for journeys from points south,
then TfL/LO would get a cut of the revenue from tickets issued to
'London Terminals' as per the ATOC/RSP revenue allocation scheme
(ORCATS). The TOCs and the DfT might well also regard this as revenue
abstraction too - it might not be quite such a clear cut case, as ELLX
would be adding to the total of trains heading from points south to
'London Terminals' - but I think it might well be regarded as just as
unwelcome.

The other possible point against it is that of concern about
overcrowded trains at SHS, which would perhaps be more likely if
'London Terminals' tickets were valid to and from it as well - in
other words if holders of 'London Terminals' season tickets were a
fickle bunch and switched their allegiance between SHS and London
Bridge/Cannon Street at the drop of a top-hat - or indeed a drop of
rain - then this could lead to surges and dips in the pattern of usage
at SHS and London Bridge/Cannon Street which could make things
difficult for planners, and could lead to ELLX trains carrying cross-
town traffic being overwhelmed at SHS. Then again, maybe not... I'm
just thinking aloud!


I think I used the ELL once, when I was working near Finsbury Square and my
train from the coast shuddered to a halt at New Cross without much prospect
of going further any time soon. I got to work .... eventually.

I believe the ELL it was used by a significant-ish number of people
for commuting to the City via the now defunct Shoreditch station off
Brick Lane - I know someone who used to do just that!

Canada Water and the interchange with the Jubilee line certainly
increased the relevance of the ELL - there was a good deal of
interchanging that went on there, and the ELL was a kind of feeder
line from points south (and once ELLX opens this will be a very busy
interchange point).

I made occasional use of the ELL - it was a bit of a strange
Underground line, but it certainly had its uses. The ELLX project will
however help the line to fulfil lots more of its potential - even if
SHS being in zone 1 does knock it back a bit.

On Apr 23, 6:46*pm, Arthur Figgis wrote:

David A Stocks wrote:
current annual season ticket prices are roughly:

Hove to London Terminals £3,500 (current ticket)
Hove to Zones 1-6 * * * *£4,000
Hove to Zones 2-6 * * * *£3,000 (using Overground from CLJ to SPB)

FWIW,

apples-vs-oranges
Mobility BahnCard 100 costs EUR 3,500 for 2nd class or EUR 5,900 for 1st
...
Apart from a few exceptions (e.g. DB AutoZug), it allows you to make any
number of journeys on any DB train, on selected buses and rail lines run
by many other transport companies. A supplement is payable for ICE
Sprinter and CityNightLine trains.
...
BahnCard holders are also entitled to a 25 per cent discount on the
normal fare for the foreign section of the journey in 29 European countries.
http://www.deutschebahn.com/site/bah...bahn__card.htm
/apples-vs-oranges


Instructive indeed. I hadn't realised a BahnCard 100 was so cheap...
or indeed that we were... [fx: voice trails off into silence]

How does it make economic sense for DB? Or does it not?

"Mizter T" wrote

The relative savings afforded by avoiding zone 1 for journeys within
London are perhaps comparable - again these are prices for annual
seasons:

Purley* to London Terminals £1,448
Zones 1-6 Travelcard £1,904
Zones 2-6 Travelcard £1,296

(*Purley price applies to any zone 6 Southern station to 'London
Terminals')

It certainly pays to avoid zone 1, as it does with 'London
Terminals'.

and in some cases it can be worthwhile buying the Travelcard to Z2,
decamping from the train at a Z2 station and completing the journey into Z1
by bus.

Peter

There is no doubt in my mind that the ELLX will probably be full from
day one as a result of considerable repressed local demand and that
the area from Shoreditch High Street to the City will be rapidly
developed. I noted on my last bendy bus ride that the approaches to
Liverpool Street, equidistant from SHS and Liverpool Street,are
already being covered next to the Broadgate Centre.My colleagues in
the City expect a proposal to build the encasing structures , on the
Bishopsgate site, around Shoreditch High Street's protective cocoon to
emerge within the next twelve months. I am not surprised at the DfT's
concern about revenue extraction being subordinated to their
obligations to avoid PIXC, or more generally to promote, with other
Government Departments, the regeneration of economically depressed
areas. These are, after all, the guys who claim loss of fuel duty as
reason for not improving the rail network, irrespective of the
environmental impact. The tone of their correspondence with London
Travel Watch shows that however hard they try they can't avoid bowing
to the little yellow god that is their inner short term
accountant.

On Apr 23, 8:14*pm, "Peter Masson" wrote:

"Mizter T" wrote

The relative savings afforded by avoiding zone 1 for journeys within
London are perhaps comparable - again these are prices for annual
seasons:

Purley* to London Terminals *£1,448
Zones 1-6 Travelcard * * * *£1,904
Zones 2-6 Travelcard * * * *£1,296

(*Purley price applies to any zone 6 Southern station to 'London
Terminals')

It certainly pays to avoid zone 1, as it does with 'London
Terminals'.

and in some cases it can be worthwhile buying the Travelcard to Z2,
decamping from the train at a Z2 station and completing the journey into Z1
by bus.


Absolutely. Vauxhall, Elephant & Castle and Camden Town are three
particularly significant 'edge of zone 1' stations that instantly
spring to mind where this tactic can fruitfully be employed - but
there are plenty of others such as Bermondsey, Whitechapel, Essex
Road, Notting Hill Gate, Royal Oak etc which might work for individual
commuters.

On Apr 23, 5:18*pm, Mizter T wrote:
On Apr 23, 4:40*pm, trundleage wrote:

And copying verbatim as happens here is obviously not plagiarism. If
you want analysis, then you're going to have to pay for it

The comment re "potential plagiarism" relates to Mr Thant's suspicion
that Transport Briefing reworked some of his own material which
appeared on his now mothballed blog, London Connections, into a piece
it presented as its own.

Anyway, I'm not getting involved in this any further.

Oh. Thank you for that. Sometimes it can be difficult to understand
some bits said when you don't get the context. Cheers.

On 23 Apr, 20:17, Mwmbwls wrote:
I am not surprised at the DfT's
concern about revenue extraction being subordinated to their
obligations to avoid PIXC, or more generally to promote, with other
Government Departments, the regeneration of economically depressed
areas. These are, after all, the guys who claim loss of fuel duty as
reason for not improving the rail network, irrespective of the
environmental impact. The tone of their correspondence with London
Travel Watch shows that however hard they try they can't avoid bowing
to the little yellow god that is their inner short term
accountant.

I always enjoy your posts, both on uk.r/u.t.l and on
londonreconnections; however, you excel yourself here. Your last
sentence in particular had me laughing out loud - I too have
experience of the Westminster village bean counters...

THC