In message
, at
04:32:18 on Thu, 28 May 2009, Mizter T remarked:
Hence night storage heaters and hot water boilers with timers (a
principle that can extend to other appliances e.g. washing machines
and dishwashers).

This is a classic example of market failure. Why should I run around
putting all those things on timers, with all the inconvenience of taking
2 days to wash clothes [wash at 2am one day, dry at 2am the next day],
just to return my bill to the level it used to be before!!

Also, this uSwitch webpage suggests that it can make sense if one's
night-time energy consumption is "roughly 20%" as opposed to a third
as you suggested:

1/3 is a sexier fraction than 1/5

http://www.uswitch.com/gas-electricity/economy-7/

Still, you're quite right to say that it could well prove to be a
false economy.

Although the rates could be adjusted.

Nonetheless the principle could be utilised for car charging, either
through on-street charge points or fed by the car owner's domestic
electricity supply

If the rates are calculated properly.

- of course charging a car from one's domestic
supply entails being able to park the car more or less next to one's
home, and dealing with getting the cable across the pavement as well
(these problems don't apply with a driveway or garage of course).

It'll make the fight for a parking space exactly outside your own house
much fiercer!

Nearby-ish to where I live there's someone who has one of these G-Wiz
electric cars - they seem to be able to park it outside their house
most of the time (it's a quiet dead-end street) and the cable they use
across the pavement (which doesn't get a lot of traffic) is one of
those arrangements with a rubbery mat so it lies flat and appears to
largely mitigate the trip factor, but I'm not sure it'd be so workable
if the pavement was a somewhat more popular walking route.

I wonder if there are any rules about that kind of thing. For example,
the car isn't directly earthed, so what if there's a fault somewhere?
--
Roland Perry

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
news

This is a classic example of market failure. Why should I run around
putting all those things on timers, with all the inconvenience of taking 2
days to wash clothes [wash at 2am one day, dry at 2am the next day], just
to return my bill to the level it used to be before!!

I don't! You completely missed the point of my post and assumed I was
talking about Economy7 tariffs.

In my case I have a separate supply which is connected to the heating system
*only*, and it's switched via the electricity suppliers switch. My main
supply is charged at the standard rate - I effectively get two bills. The
switched supply has a simple mechanical time switch which gives me 7 hours
overnight and a 3.5 hours during the afternoon.

HOWEVER, my parents have the radio controlled switch that I described in my
original post and (like me) it controls the heating circuits and (like me)
it gives them 7 hours overnight and 3.5 hours in the afternoon. However,
they don't know for certain when the supply is active, because their
supplier can remotely switch the supply at their convenience in order to get
the best prices from the National Grid - in effect the local supplier will
selectively shed load when the grid 'market' price rises, whilst ensuring
that everyone gets their quota of cheap rate hours fed to their heating
systems. For obvious reasons consumers aren't allowed to connect appliances
like dishwashers and washing machines to a supply that is controlled in this
manner, but my parents get cheap rate overnight electricity on their main
supply (per Economy7) as well.

Just to get us back to the original thread, I was suggesting that a similar
mechanism could be used to control car charging points in order to avoid
overloading local and national electricity distribution networks during
peaks in demand, thus delaying (or possibly avoiding altogether) the
requirement for the major upgrades that you had suggested would be
necessary.

D A Stocks.

In message , at 00:17:42 on Fri, 29 May
2009, David A Stocks remarked:

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
news

This is a classic example of market failure. Why should I run around
putting all those things on timers, with all the inconvenience of
taking 2 days to wash clothes [wash at 2am one day, dry at 2am the
next day], just to return my bill to the level it used to be before!!

I don't! You completely missed the point of my post and assumed I was
talking about Economy7 tariffs.

In my case I have a separate supply which is connected to the heating
system *only*, and it's switched via the electricity suppliers switch.
My main supply is charged at the standard rate - I effectively get two
bills. The switched supply has a simple mechanical time switch which
gives me 7 hours overnight and a 3.5 hours during the afternoon.

I've never come across such a supply, hence the confusion.

HOWEVER, my parents have the radio controlled switch that I described
in my original post and (like me) it controls the heating circuits and
(like me) it gives them 7 hours overnight and 3.5 hours in the
afternoon. However, they don't know for certain when the supply is
active,

And presumably (unlike Economy7) they can't do a "Boost" during the day
(albeit at a higher price).

because their supplier can remotely switch the supply at their
convenience in order to get the best prices from the National Grid - in
effect the local supplier will selectively shed load when the grid
'market' price rises, whilst ensuring that everyone gets their quota of
cheap rate hours fed to their heating systems.

With the heating system requiring separate wiring, I suppose.

For obvious reasons consumers aren't allowed to connect appliances like
dishwashers and washing machines to a supply that is controlled in this
manner, but my parents get cheap rate overnight electricity on their
main supply (per Economy7) as well.

But if their heating is on this separate "7 hour only" scheme, it's
virtually impossible that Economy7 would be value for money, because
with so little off-peak use of Economy7, and the hike in daytime rates
for E7 customers, the sums just don't work out.

Just to get us back to the original thread, I was suggesting that a
similar mechanism could be used to control car charging points in order
to avoid overloading local and national electricity distribution
networks during peaks in demand, thus delaying (or possibly avoiding
altogether) the requirement for the major upgrades that you had
suggested would be necessary.

But if the chargers are on separate circuits that only work at dead of
night, it's another case of "no Boost available", and you are in effect
rationing people to one-charge-per-day.
--
Roland Perry

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...

But if the chargers are on separate circuits that only work at dead of
night, it's another case of "no Boost available", and you are in effect
rationing people to one-charge-per-day.

I was only describing the current service - there's a good description of it
he

http://www.energynetworks.org/rts/index.asp

The basic principle is that the consumer sacrifices some control of their
demand to the supplier. For a car charging application it makes sense to do
the remote switching at the charging point/socket or in the charging circuit
of the car/battery itself. A more sophisticated solution might use wireless
networking or GPRS to provide 2-way communication. It just requires a bit of
thought ...

D A Stocks

In message , at 14:04:46 on Sat, 30 May
2009, David A Stocks remarked:

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...

But if the chargers are on separate circuits that only work at dead
of night, it's another case of "no Boost available", and you are in
effect rationing people to one-charge-per-day.

I was only describing the current service - there's a good description
of it he

http://www.energynetworks.org/rts/index.asp

That seems to describe the technology - do you have any pointers to
suppliers/tariffs?

The basic principle is that the consumer sacrifices some control of
their demand to the supplier. For a car charging application it makes
sense to do the remote switching at the charging point/socket or in the
charging circuit of the car/battery itself. A more sophisticated
solution might use wireless networking or GPRS to provide 2-way
communication. It just requires a bit of thought ...

A bit like moving block signalling, then
--
Roland Perry