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London Transport (uk.transport.london) Discussion of all forms of transport in London. |
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#1
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On 29 May, 12:45, disgoftunwells wrote:
On 29 May, 12:04, Tony Polson wrote: disgoftunwells wrote: On 28 May, 19:13, Tony Polson wrote: disgoftunwells wrote: Where you have an essential service, how about legislation to remove* the right to strike and replace it with compulsory pendulum arbitration. This has worked well at many companies, where a strike would damage employees and employers. It could work in the public sector as well. The first reaction to such a suggestion would be for the RMT to call an all-out strike. That would of course be a political strike which is banned under the 80s legislation, so the RMT could then be stripped of its assets. Nonsense. *RMT would be striking because management were unilaterally imposing an unacceptable form of wage negotiation. *That's a fundamental issue and one that would form a perfectly legal basis for industrial action. *Comrade Crow would have no problem rustling up a vote against, so all requirements of the industrial relations legislation would have been complied with. * Please read what I said - *"legislation to remove the right to strike ....and [enforce compulsory arbitration]" This would be nothing to do with the management and the RMT. If the RMT launches a strike then would be striking about Government legislation - i.e striking against a third party which is illegal under the 1984 act (I think - I studied it 20 years ago - but certainly one of them) But ultimately, when faced with constant blackmail, a day of reckoning has to arrive. That's where you're wrong. *Decades of simmering discontent and periodic strikes have led to more decades of simmering discontent and periodic strikes. *Nothing has changed. *Nothing is bringing it to a head, so there won't be a day of reckoning. I was thinking more generally. When was the last time the miners went on strike? Even Rover workers turned a new leaf, though ultimately too late to save themselves. Workers keep getting what they ask for. The management can't do anything. finally external stakeholders force the issue. In a competitive market, external stakeholders are customers and act very quickly.- Cite a successful strike or an example of workers getting what they ask for? The management invariably hold all the cards and always get what they want. Along the way, they may propose something beyond reasonableness in order to wear out the unions, and then appear to back down to what they wanted all along. There was a brief period in the early 1970s when the unions appeared to use the kind of tactics that all business use all day every day, but basically unions have no power at all beyond the funding that they provide to Labour oppositions, and that's all been squandered by a few officials chasing knighthoods (with a few honourable exceptions like Bob Crow) rather than representing the interests of their members. |
#2
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On May 29, 1:04*pm, MIG wrote:
Cite a successful strike or an example of workers getting what they ask for? *The management invariably hold all the cards and always get what they want. Sorry, how much do tube workers get paid again? How much does the average skilled manual worker get paid again? Claiming that their industrial militancy hasn't paid off, whether you approve of it or not, is just odd. -- John Band john at johnband dot org www.johnband.org |
#3
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On 29 May, 13:51, wrote:
On May 29, 1:04*pm, MIG wrote: Cite a successful strike or an example of workers getting what they ask for? *The management invariably hold all the cards and always get what they want. Sorry, how much do tube workers get paid again? How much does the average skilled manual worker get paid again? Claiming that their industrial militancy hasn't paid off, whether you approve of it or not, is just odd. Senior bankers must have gone on strike an awful lot then. Strikes result from fear and desperation and are a failure for both unions and management. Good contracts result from organisation and negotiation. I'd say that good union organisation results in better contracts and working conditions. Union organisation is also a prerequisite for a strike, but I don't think that strikes have resulted in better contracts and working conditions. They are just a symptom of conditions getting worse, for economic or political reasons. However, even when negotiation is taking place, it's the employer that holds all the cards. My experience is that they'll, for example, propose new contracts containing one or two outrageous proposals. The unions will then effectively proof-read the document for the management and point out the bits that are totally silly. The management then issues the corrected version with the really silly bits left out, and gets through the real change that they wanted to make. |
#4
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MIG wrote:
Dem narstee bossiz hav got braynz in dez heads en uss wurkas azzunt so we is orlwaze da undadog |
#5
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On 29 May, 14:57, "John Rowland"
wrote: MIG wrote: Dem narstee bossiz hav got braynz in dez heads en uss wurkas azzunt so we is orlwaze da undadog- No I didn't write anything of the sort. |
#6
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On Fri, 29 May 2009 06:52:56 -0700 (PDT)
MIG wrote: Strikes result from fear and desperation and are a failure for both LOL! Fear and desperation , give us a break! Opportunistic bully boy tactics more like. B2003 |
#7
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On 29 May, 14:52, MIG wrote:
On 29 May, 13:51, wrote: On May 29, 1:04*pm, MIG wrote: Cite a successful strike or an example of workers getting what they ask for? *The management invariably hold all the cards and always get what they want. Sorry, how much do tube workers get paid again? How much does the average skilled manual worker get paid again? Claiming that their industrial militancy hasn't paid off, whether you approve of it or not, is just odd. Senior bankers must have gone on strike an awful lot then. "Over-payment" or "under payment" would typically result from a market failure, or a winner takes all system. The over payment of tube drivers is caused by a market failure, in itself caused by excessive negotiating power of the unions. A classic winner takes all system is the market for football players. There are about 400 premiership places in England and clubs are desperate for the best. Banking is a little bit in between the two. Same with senior executive pay. |
#8
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On 29 May, 15:18, wrote:
I have watched this discussion with interest and can only suggest the following:- Offer a wage rise of inflation + a small amount and as a condition impose a solution to any outstanding more minor issues, such as the Sunday working problems with some TOC's. If they do not agree sack those that do not turn up for work. *There are now plenty of unemployed to fill the vacancies. Manage with a reduced underground service for the time it takes to train new staff. *After all we will be without the underground during a strike. If existing legislation does not permit this then change it. *That threat may well worry other unions who may put pressure on the black Crow. That's the bare bones. *I will leave others to fill the gaps. Malcolm Extreme 1: "workers" get paid loads of money and don't have to do any work. Extreme 2: businesses pocket the proceeds of slave labour. With 1, there's nothing to sell, and it collapses. With 2, there's no one to buy anything, and it collapses. I'm all in favour of cooperation, but on this group everyone seems to think that defeating one group and its interests will result in a better situation. I really doubt it. |
#9
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On May 29, 3:37*pm, MIG wrote:
Extreme 1: "workers" get paid loads of money and don't have to do any work. Extreme 2: businesses pocket the proceeds of slave labour. With 1, there's nothing to sell, and it collapses. With 2, there's no one to buy anything, and it collapses. I'm all in favour of cooperation, but on this group everyone seems to think that defeating one group and its interests will result in a better situation. *I really doubt it. There are |
#10
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On May 29, 3:37*pm, MIG wrote:
Extreme 1: "workers" get paid loads of money and don't have to do any work. Extreme 2: businesses pocket the proceeds of slave labour. With 1, there's nothing to sell, and it collapses. With 2, there's no one to buy anything, and it collapses. I'm all in favour of cooperation, but on this group everyone seems to think that defeating one group and its interests will result in a better situation. *I really doubt it. Agreed, and there are some people on this group who do believe that, and they're wrong. However, there is surely a reasonable case to be made that LU, which is a public sector operation not an evil den of fatcattery, is closer to Extreme 1 than Extreme 2. If that's true, then legislation that shifted the balance slightly closer towards Extreme 2 wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing. My wider perspective is that unions are overly powerful in the public sector and insufficiently powerful in the private sector, presumably reflecting the fact that in the public sector the chances of everyone being thrown out of a job due to bankruptcy if you impose unrealistic demands are somewhere between low and zero. Not *completely* zero though: the UK would still have a coal mining industry today had Scargill taken the 'nuclear' scenario seriously... -- John Band john at johnband dot org www.johnband.org |
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