I wonder if I could get the group's opinion on a rather unnerving Oyster
problem I had yesterday?

I was using Oyster PAYG and I'd made several other bus and tube journeys
during the day. I travelled on the Bakerloo from Piccadilly Circus to
Wembley Central, getting to Wembley at about 1650, and went to collect my
bag from a hotel near the stadium. I then needed to get back to central
London so I caught Chiltern to Marylebone, touching back in at Wembley
Stadium at about 1710.

While I was on Chiltern, I got ticket-checked by an RPI, who swiped my
Oyster with one of those hand-held readers, and the light went red. So he
started to charge me a £20 penalty fare. Luckily he was a reasonable chap
and he listened to my protestation that I'd definitely touched in at Wembley
Stadium, and checked his reader again, which apparently said I'd last
touched *out* at 1712 - which I think is the time I touched *in* at Wembley
Stadium.

At Marylebone he took me to the gateline and went to check 'the computer'
which apparently showed I'd made a journey from Piccadilly Circus to Wembley
Stadium. So he refunded my credit card for the PF, and all was well. He let
me out of the gateline at Marylebone using his staff pass, without me
touching out again, so I was worried that I'd have some weird unresolved
journey, but my card seemed to work OK to do Baker Street to KXSP.
Annoyingly I didn't have time to check a tube station ticket machine to see
what my journey history said for myself, and I can't get it on my Oyster
online account as I haven't activated auto top-up.

I have no complaints at all with the gripper - he was very polite
throughout, and I'm writing to Chiltern to compliment him. Whst does confuse
me is why his reader came up with a red light? I'm presuming the Oyster
thought I was doing an out-of-station interchange Wembley Central - Stadium,
but why didn't it think I'd be continuing my journey? I know Piccadilly
Circus - Marylebone via Wembley would be a silly journey, but surely going
the other way on Chiltern, something like Piccadilly Circus to one of the
Sudburys via Wembley would be sensible?

Anyone have any ideas?

I'm guessing this sort of problem is going to become all the more frequent
when PAYG is (eventually) rolled out across National Rail...

James

On 6 June, 17:29, Paul Corfield wrote:
Did you touch out at Wembley Central? *If you didn't then I can fully
understand why a touch in at Wembley Stadium would, in fact, end your
original journey from Picc Circus (as recorded on your card).

It should still allow an onward journey though, shouldn't it? My
understanding is that if you touch a free-standing validator your
journey is still able to be reopened - so if he'd have touched out at
Marylebone it would extended the end point of journey. This is
certainly how it's behaved for me.

Or in other words, the gripper's machine (or the gripper) isn't
programmed to detect this state.

Speaking of incorrectly programmed Oyster machinery, last week I took
a train from Stratford to Tottenham Hale to use the Victoria Line, but
because I went straight to the tube gateline without first touching a
validator on the NR platforms, I was charged £4 for the train journey.
Grrr.

U

On 6 June, 17:44, Mr Thant
wrote:
On 6 June, 17:29, Paul Corfield wrote:

Did you touch out at Wembley Central? *If you didn't then I can fully
understand why a touch in at Wembley Stadium would, in fact, end your
original journey from Picc Circus (as recorded on your card).

It should still allow an onward journey though, shouldn't it? My
understanding is that if you touch a free-standing validator your
journey is still able to be reopened - so if he'd have touched out at
Marylebone it would extended the end point of journey. This is
certainly how it's behaved for me.

Or in other words, the gripper's machine (or the gripper) isn't
programmed to detect this state.

Has this been tried for definite, like if you touch at every validator
along the DLR, does it keep on continuing the journey or does it
assume lots of ins and outs? Does it depend on the timing?

Or if I really did visit someone near Mudchute for an hour, and then
walked on to Crossharbour to start a new journey to Bank, would it
just be read as a continuation of the original journey from down my
way?

Also, I would have assumed that not touching in at Crossharbour would
be against the rules, but if you are right, my touch "out" at Mudchute
would leave my original journey open.

Obviously two hours delay would create a new journey.


Speaking of incorrectly programmed Oyster machinery, last week I took
a train from Stratford to Tottenham Hale to use the Victoria Line, but
because I went straight to the tube gateline without first touching a
validator on the NR platforms, I was charged £4 for the train journey.
Grrr.

U

I guess effectively that's the problem I had at the LU gate at Canary
Wharf, not touching the DLR validator previously (when I was young and
naive).

On Jun 6, 5:44*pm, Mr Thant
wrote:

On 6 June, 17:29, Paul Corfield wrote:

Did you touch out at Wembley Central? *If you didn't then I can fully
understand why a touch in at Wembley Stadium would, in fact, end your
original journey from Picc Circus (as recorded on your card).

It should still allow an onward journey though, shouldn't it? My
understanding is that if you touch a free-standing validator your
journey is still able to be reopened - so if he'd have touched out at
Marylebone it would extended the end point of journey. This is
certainly how it's behaved for me.

No - there's *no* OSI between any of the Wembley stations, therefore
touching on a reader at Wembley Stadium station with a card that has
an open journey will finalise that journey.

Also, free-standing validators seem to be configured in one of (at
least) two modes - one is "interchange mode", where it keeps open the
possibility of your journey continuing for a set amound of time. The
other is "straightforward mode", where journeys are either started or
finished according to the state of the card - full stop, no
possibility of journeys continuing.

In my experience most DLR validators are configured in
"straightforward mode" (for want of a better term!), though a few are
in "interchange mode" - apart from OSI situations, I think a few
others might be such as at Poplar where you have to pass across the
overbridge and past the free-standing validators to change from
platform to platform.


Or in other words, the gripper's machine (or the gripper) isn't
programmed to detect this state.

See above.


Speaking of incorrectly programmed Oyster machinery, last week I took
a train from Stratford to Tottenham Hale to use the Victoria Line, but
because I went straight to the tube gateline without first touching a
validator on the NR platforms, I was charged £4 for the train journey.
Grrr.

Annoying, but strictly speaking that's correct - from NR platforms to
the Victoria line station is an OSI, therefore you're supposed to
touch-out beofre you then enter the gates and touch-in again. In this
instance it would be good if the LU gates had some tolerance though.

On Jun 6, 5:56*pm, MIG wrote:

On 6 June, 17:44, Mr Thant
wrote:

On 6 June, 17:29, Paul Corfield wrote:

Did you touch out at Wembley Central? *If you didn't then I can fully
understand why a touch in at Wembley Stadium would, in fact, end your
original journey from Picc Circus (as recorded on your card).

It should still allow an onward journey though, shouldn't it? My
understanding is that if you touch a free-standing validator your
journey is still able to be reopened - so if he'd have touched out at
Marylebone it would extended the end point of journey. This is
certainly how it's behaved for me.

Or in other words, the gripper's machine (or the gripper) isn't
programmed to detect this state.

Has this been tried for definite, like if you touch at every validator
along the DLR, does it keep on continuing the journey or does it
assume lots of ins and outs? *Does it depend on the timing?

I have tried it for definite on the DLR - at straightforward stations
(i.e. where there's no possibility of interchange with LU or other DLR
routes) it either starts or finishes ones journey, depending on the
state of the card. Unless I've gone mad and am misremembering
everything.


Or if I really did visit someone near Mudchute for an hour, and then
walked on to Crossharbour to start a new journey to Bank, would it
just be read as a continuation of the original journey from down my
way?

No.


Also, I would have assumed that not touching in at Crossharbour would
be against the rules, but if you are right, my touch "out" at Mudchute
would leave my original journey open.

I'm almost certain it wouldn't have though.


Obviously two hours delay would create a new journey.

FWIW the time limit is now two and a half hours, and come September
it'll be a variable limit depending on how far one has travelled and
also AIUI whether one is judged to have used more infrequent NR
services too.


Speaking of incorrectly programmed Oyster machinery, last week I took
a train from Stratford to Tottenham Hale to use the Victoria Line, but
because I went straight to the tube gateline without first touching a
validator on the NR platforms, I was charged £4 for the train journey..
Grrr.

I guess effectively that's the problem I had at the LU gate at Canary
Wharf, not touching the DLR validator previously (when I was young and
naive).

Yes, same problem. Given the scenario at Tottenham Hale, there's
perhaps some argument in making the system a bit more tolerant. Not
sure if this is possible from a technical standpoint however.

On 6 June, 18:14, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Sat, 6 Jun 2009 09:44:43 -0700 (PDT), Mr Thant

wrote:
On 6 June, 17:29, Paul Corfield wrote:
Did you touch out at Wembley Central? *If you didn't then I can fully
understand why a touch in at Wembley Stadium would, in fact, end your
original journey from Picc Circus (as recorded on your card).

It should still allow an onward journey though, shouldn't it? My
understanding is that if you touch a free-standing validator your
journey is still able to be reopened - so if he'd have touched out at
Marylebone it would extended the end point of journey. This is
certainly how it's behaved for me.

Eh? *Validators simply set your card to the opposite of its previous
state assuming other factors are also valid. In other words if the last
thing you did was enter then it will set exit assuming zones and PAYG
money and max journey time is all logical and valid. *It may set some
additional data if an OSI is involved - I have not yet checked to see if
Wembley Central and Wembley Stadium are part of an OSI or not.

Or in other words, the gripper's machine (or the gripper) isn't
programmed to detect this state.

I don't know how the Chiltern reader is programmed - do you? *You're
making a very definitive statement there and from my (old) experience of
readers it's often largely down to how sophisticated the hand held
reader is as to what it displays and interprets from the card.

Speaking of incorrectly programmed Oyster machinery, last week I took
a train from Stratford to Tottenham Hale to use the Victoria Line, but
because I went straight to the tube gateline without first touching a
validator on the NR platforms, I was charged £4 for the train journey.
Grrr.

Surely it's you who made the error? *You were exiting from the NR "side"
of the OSI so needed to record an exit on the validator. You "entered"
at the Vic Line and a failure to record your exit from NR got you the £4
charge. *I don't see how there is an Oyster failing here no matter how
galling it is for you to have incurred a £4 charge.
--
Paul C

Only if the punter is expecting Totenham Hale to be an OSI, rather
than a straightforward interchange during a single journey. I think
that confusion is reasonable.

On 6 June, 18:14, Paul Corfield wrote:
Eh? *Validators simply set your card to the opposite of its previous
state assuming other factors are also valid. In other words if the last
thing you did was enter then it will set exit assuming zones and PAYG
money and max journey time is all logical and valid.

Is there a difference between exit validators (at ungated stations)
and interchange validators (eg at Moorgate, Farringdon, Highbury). My
experience is mainly with the latter. The behaviour you describe would
only make sense for the former.

Surely it's you who made the error? *You were exiting from the NR "side"
of the OSI so needed to record an exit on the validator. You "entered"
at the Vic Line and a failure to record your exit from NR got you the £4
charge. *I don't see how there is an Oyster failing here no matter how
galling it is for you to have incurred a £4 charge.

But I didn't exit anything! I interchanged, indoors, without leaving
railway property. The thing that's incorrect is for the programmers to
have even considered treating it as an OSI. To the passenger, it's no
more of one than changing tube lines at Oxford Circus.

The JLE gateline at Stratford is a good comparison. It doesn't require
PAYG customers arriving from the DLR (etc) to have touched out. I
foolishly expected the gateline at Tottenham Hale to also have been
programmed properly.

(and I genuinely expected you to be outraged that the gateline is
misprogrammed, not making excuses)

U

On Jun 6, 6:14*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Sat, 6 Jun 2009 09:44:43 -0700 (PDT), Mr Thant
Speaking of incorrectly programmed Oyster machinery, last week I took
a train from Stratford to Tottenham Hale to use the Victoria Line, but
because I went straight to the tube gateline without first touching a
validator on the NR platforms, I was charged £4 for the train journey.
Grrr.

Surely it's you who made the error? *You were exiting from the NR "side"
of the OSI so needed to record an exit on the validator. You "entered"
at the Vic Line and a failure to record your exit from NR got you the £4
charge. *I don't see how there is an Oyster failing here no matter how
galling it is for you to have incurred a £4 charge.

I've made the same mistake - I didn't think it was obvious that I'd
have to touch out to leave the (ungated) platform, nor that I'd
encounter a gateline to enter the tube. And even when I got to the
gateline, I thought that the system would work out what I was doing.
Perhaps I'm too used to Finsbury Park and Highbury & Islington.
(I managed to get the extra charge refunded at a ticket office, as I'd
otherwise reached the off-peak cap - but the unresolved journey still
shows up on my journey history at ticket machines. Will that ever go
away?)

On Jun 6, 7:54*pm, Martin Deutsch wrote:

On Jun 6, 6:14*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:

On Sat, 6 Jun 2009 09:44:43 -0700 (PDT), Mr Thant
Speaking of incorrectly programmed Oyster machinery, last week I took
a train from Stratford to Tottenham Hale to use the Victoria Line, but
because I went straight to the tube gateline without first touching a
validator on the NR platforms, I was charged £4 for the train journey.
Grrr.

Surely it's you who made the error? *You were exiting from the NR "side"
of the OSI so needed to record an exit on the validator. You "entered"
at the Vic Line and a failure to record your exit from NR got you the £4
charge. *I don't see how there is an Oyster failing here no matter how
galling it is for you to have incurred a £4 charge.

I've made the same mistake - I didn't think it was obvious that I'd
have to touch out to leave the (ungated) platform, nor that I'd
encounter a gateline to enter the tube. And even when I got to the
gateline, I thought that the system would work out what I was doing.
Perhaps I'm too used to Finsbury Park and Highbury & Islington.
(I managed to get the extra charge refunded at a ticket office, as I'd
otherwise reached the off-peak cap - but the unresolved journey still
shows up on my journey history at ticket machines. Will that ever go
away?)

It does eventually. Don't worry about it!

Though when was this? I didn't think LU ticket offices have been able
to do such refunds for a long time.

Thanks for providing a 'fresh' POV from the passenger's perspective
with regards to Tottenham Hale. Whilst 'the system' is working
properly, how this system works is far from clear to the passenger. I
think it could do with being changed at this location.

Anyone have any ideas?

Did you touch out at Wembley Central? If you didn't then I can fully
understand why a touch in at Wembley Stadium would, in fact, end your
original journey from Picc Circus (as recorded on your card).

Something similar has happened to me before, about a year ago. Myself
and a friend got out at Canary Wharf and touched out. We then walked to
Westferry and tried to touch in again, and the LCD screen on the reader
said 'Exit' for both of us. No matter how many times we put our cards to
the reader the screen still kept saying 'Exit.'

We approached the Train Captain and he used his reader, both of our
cards showed the red light on his reader. He said it was odd but let us
travel. We were only going to Bank anyway so it wouldn't be a problem
for any future journeys.

At the end of the day we both checked out statements on the ticket
machines and for both of us it said said something like:
"Baker Street - Unfinished
Unstarted - Westferry"