Paul wrote:
Paul Weaver wrote:
On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 10:27:32 +0100, Colin McKenzie wrote:
I'm with K on this one. I think interchanges are needed at almost
all the places in London where lines cross each other. The sort of
journeys

Indeed. H&C/Central/the line from Kensington

Presumably you mean the West London Line (WLL) from Kensington Olympia

should all have an interchange just north of shepherds bush H&C


Meaning White City? There is a plan for a new White City H&C station to
serve the new retail centre, but that's a long way from the WLL, which will
have a station near to Shepherd's Bush Central Line.

Taking that particular point of view one stage further, most of the
infrastructure is already in place for the District Line to start at
the already segregated platforms at Clapham Junction and go over the
river, past Olympia and through a somehow resurrected link back to
the old Outer Circle line

That would require reinstating the link from the WLL to Latimer Road on the
H&C, which was abandoned after being bombed in WW2. The West Cross Route
(ex-M41) and its junction to serve the White City retail centre is now in
the way.

and direct quite a lot of passenger traffic
on towards Paddington, as I would imagine that quite a lot of
passengers go into the centre only to go back out on a different
route. There must also be a fairly high number of travellers who have
to change anyway at Clapham Junction, so interchanging onto LU there
would probably reduce the volume heading for Victoria or Waterloo.
(Basic theory is to disperse as many as possible away fom the centre
rather than bringing them in only for them to go out again.)
Still requires a bit of fine-tuning but it could be made to work.

The other problem is that the WLL is an important freight route across
London, and cannot sustain a very frequent passenger service without loss of
freight paths. Also, where do your trains terminate? Paddington would be
possible eventually (post-HEx), I suppose. I doubt that there is the
terminal or line capacity further east.

I'm afraid this is an attractive and apparently simple scheme ("most of the
infrastructure is already in place") which is actually fraught with
difficulties.
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 14:09:45 +0000, Richard J. wrote:
Presumably you mean the West London Line (WLL) from Kensington Olympia

Possibly, it's not on the normal tube map, only the big one with all rail
links

Meaning White City? There is a plan for a new White City H&C station to
serve the new retail centre, but that's a long way from the WLL, which
will have a station near to Shepherd's Bush Central Line.

The new retail center is south of the current white city station, halfway
to the Shepherds bush H&C station. Of course Bank and Momument aren't
exactly close either.

(Basic theory is to disperse as many as possible away fom the centre
rather than bringing them in only for them to go out again.)
Still requires a bit of fine-tuning but it could be made to work.

That goes against the philosophy on the London-centric governments for the
past 937 years, they don't realise some people don't want to go to London!

The other problem is that the WLL is an important freight route across
London, and cannot sustain a very frequent passenger service without loss of

Why does freight need to go *across* London. I can understand it going
into london, however the freight destined for the 50 million people living
outside the Greater London area shouldn't go anywhere near London. There
should be a large (6 track?) London Orbital, channeling Channel Tunnel
traffic to Brum/The North, or Traffic to East Anglia from the South,
around from London in the same way the M25 does.

freight paths. Also, where do your trains terminate? Paddington would be
possible eventually (post-HEx), I suppose. I doubt that there is the
terminal or line capacity further east.

Sure, throw them on the circle/district/metropolitan/hammersmith and city
line

Coudn't you terminate underneath Paddington, next to the Bakerloo line? Or
even carry on on a tube tunnel across Marylebone, to Euston, and KX? Or
perhaps take a northern view, via Finchley Road, Camden Town, Highbury and
Islingon to Liverpool Street?

OK the tunneling would be expensive, but it would allow the majority
of tube traffic to circle London without going into zone 1.

The other problem is that the WLL is an important freight route
across London, and cannot sustain a very frequent passenger service
without loss of freight paths. Also, where do your trains terminate?
Paddington would be possible eventually (post-HEx), I suppose. I doubt
that
there is the terminal or line capacity further east.

Sure, throw them on the circle/district/metropolitan/hammersmith and
city line

Coudn't you terminate underneath Paddington, next to the Bakerloo
line? Or even carry on on a tube tunnel across Marylebone, to Euston,
and KX? Or perhaps take a northern view, via Finchley Road, Camden
Town, Highbury and Islingon to Liverpool Street?

OK the tunneling would be expensive, but it would allow the majority
of tube traffic to circle London without going into zone 1.

Bear in mind that from (West Kensington) the Cromwell Curve to South Ken the
Circle/ District already has the Piccadilly underneath. With the advances in
technology it wouldn't be an additional burden on the existing setup either.
Paul

"Richard J." wrote:
The other problem is that the WLL is an important freight route across
London, and cannot sustain a very frequent passenger service without loss of
freight paths.

This is the story we always get, but it needs to be unpacked. First,
considerable sections of the WLL were originally 4-track - including
Olympia station - and could be again. This would allow overtaking about
halfway along the link, if necessary.

But a lot could also be done with signalling and scheduling. It
shouldn't be beyond the wit of man to alternate freights travelling at a
constant 25-30 mph with passenger trains averaging the same speed but
reaching 60 or so and stopping 5 or 6 times. The limiting factor is
freight train length - at 30mph a half-mile long train takes a minute to
pass a point. With 2 empty blocks behind that would mean you couldn't
schedule trains to get closer than 3 minutes apart. That might mean a
timetable frequency of a train every 5 minutes or a passenger train
every 10.

As to where the trains would go, I'd favour Watford junction one way
(replacing the Silverlink DC Euston service). Extension beyond Clapham
Junction would be desirable, but I'm not sure where to.

Colin Mckenzie