Paul Corfield wrote:

On Mon, 8 Jun 2009 11:28:54 -0700 (PDT), Mizter T
wrote:

Anyway, leaving aside the brinkmanship I see from the splash on the
front page of the TfL website that they've got a number of contingency
plans up their sleeve should the strike go ahead - see the news
release he
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/medi...tre/11971.aspx

There's several things of note...

* Most strikingly Oyster PAYG "will be accepted on all National Rail
journeys within Greater London on Wednesday and Thursday, just show
your Oyster card at station gate lines". In practice I'm pretty sure
this means that anyone who can flash an Oyster card can travel on NR
services in London.

I'm sure people will simply be waved through.

Agreed.


It'll be interesting to see what is done where Oyster PAYG is accepted
for part of a National Rail (NR) route, but not for all of it -
specifically how unresolved journeys will be handled. A good example
of this is someone's normal commute from Bounds Green to King's Cross
on the Piccadilly line - instead they'll be able to travel from Bowes
Park NR station to King's Cross on FCC's Great Northern service.
Normally Oyster PAYG is only accepted on the GN service between
Finsbury Park and King's Cross/ all stations to Moorgate. However on
strike day they'd end up simply touching-out at King's Cross as they
can't touch-in at Bowes Park, and likewise on their way home touching-
in at KX and not being able to touch-out at Bowes Park.

Eh? I assume you believe people will be changing trains at Finsbury
Park as I don't see the whole Moorgate service being able to reach Kings
Cross. If Highbury, Old St and Moorgate are shut then the stopping
trains will probably turn round at Drayton Park as there would be
insufficient staff coverage to allow evacuation on the tunnel section to
Moorgate.

Argh, balls, sorry, I couldn't have made more of a mess of that if I'd
tried. I used a stupid example - Bounds Green/Bowes Park to Kings
Cross - as I'd totally failed to take into account the fact that the
whole "GN Electrics" service goes to Moorgate, not King's Cross - at
least that's what happens during the weekday before 10pm (last time I
was on one it was the weekend, hence went to KX).

My scenario was based around someone *not* changing trains - I'd
provide a better example, but Tim Roll-Pickering has actually already
done so in a separate reply to your post, so instead I'll hang on to
his coat-tails on this question - his is the post about a Forest Gate
to Liverpool Street journey.

By the by it hadn't even crossed my mind that the GN Electrics service
to Moorgate might be affected by the strike! Blindingly obvious when
you think about it of course. So Old Street and Moorgate are two other
stations that LU will be very keen to see if they can stay open. The
plot thickens...


This could be dealt with by reconfiguring all the relevant Oyster
readers (on gates and standalone validators) at NR stations to simply
debit the amount for the minimum journey from that station, i.e.
switch off the 'entry charge' system and revert to how things were
before it was introduced, and also stop unresolved journeys breaking
capping. At least this is what I'd do! If it happens I imagine it
might possibly be more easily implemented on a network-wide basis, as
opposed to trying to single out the relevant stations. Anyway, we
shall see how that plays out.

I doubt there will be much tinkering with the system on the day. My
guess is that there will probably be a mass reversal of maximum fares
implemented after the strike to remove any such charges incurred through
the inability of the system to cope with changed journey patterns.

Hmm. If so that's not ideal - though of course the strike is hardly
ideal either. But the point is that just one or two £4 charges could
nail people's Oyster cards - sure, many people have auto-top-up
enabled or have 30 quid or whatever stashed on their card, but a great
many others don't keep a lot on their card - I'd wager that a good
proportion of PAYG users top up little and often.

Sure, a card that's been emptied as a result of £4 charges will get
waved through for use on NR regardless on the strike days, but then
there's the problem of trying to use it on buses, on the DLR, on LO,
on any Tube services that might be running, and the problem of trying
to use it in days after the strike as well. People might be told that
they'll get their money back, but they might well want it there and
then. Plus there's the issue of people who don't regularly pass
through any one particular Tube station.

My thinking was that there might just be a 'magic button' that could
be pressed which would simply turn off the whole 'entry charge'
system. I just had a thought that such an option might exist within
the system - no extensive tinkering, just a simple network-wide
instruction which simply makes the system fall back to a pre-
configured mode which exists such eventualities.

At least, that's how I'd handle it!


Regardless of the unresolved journey issue, passing Oyster PAYG across
NR would certainly lead to a degree of confusion in the mind's of many
passengers, given the "always touch-in, always touch-out" mantra
that's been drilled into them! Are NR staff prepared for the
questioning?!

I dare say there will be a message for the days of the strike and that
it's been worked out in advance.

No doubt - doesn't mean it's necessarily permeated the conciousness of
a suburban ticket clerk who is befuddled by all these folk looking to
touch-out on the non-existent Oyster reader at the end of their hard
day!


Looking at it more generally, TfL must be prepared to hand over some
serious cash to the TOCs for effectively allowing free travel on the
NR network (but shush, just make sure you don't phrase it like that!).

There is a long standing reciprocal acceptance agreement between TfL and
the TOCs. It used to be very informal in BR days but I understand it
was substantially revised a number of years ago to better cover a wide
range of scenarios affecting all the modes. I am sure you are correct
that there will be money flowing from TfL.

Thanks for the information. If you look at the other thread, "Oyster
PASYG on National rail during tube srike" (sic), you'll see that SWT
doesn't quite seem to share TfL's interpretation of it!


* There will be "five escorted cycle rides", which will set off from
their start points at 0745 - none of which are actually very far out
of town, but I think it's often the final stretch into central London
that puts people off cycling to work. This is being organised by the
London Cycle Campaign - they've dubbed it "BikeTube(s)" and have a
special website about it he
http://www.biketube.org.uk/

And while I can see why this is being done I can also foresee bus lanes
getting very clogged with lots of cycles. Let's be kind and say there
might be a bit of conflict and it hardly helps overstuffed buses keep
moving at the height of the peak.

I doubt these will be massive affairs. We shall see. Some roads are
already very busy cycle arteries, the bus lanes being an important
part of that - I'm thinking of the A24/ A3 here. That said, the plan
is for mass rides (FSVO "mass") so that is a bit different. I'm not
sure I can foresee "conflict" though! (again, FSVO "conflict"!)


* London Overground is apparently "operating as normal", so it seems
TfL are confident that the LUL managed stations can stay open.
("Operating as normal" on the NLL of course means getting stuck behind
a 'failed' freight train, or having a slow freight train sent out just
in front of a passenger train.)

Hmmm - interesting comment. I enquired internally as to whether
Blackhorse Road would open for access to GOBLIN services. I was told it
was unlikely due to the need to prioritise other locations. It would not
be a surprise if the RMT deliberately target key places like Stratford,
Highbury and Harrow and Wealdstone to try to ensure no trains of any
description stop at these places due to there being no LUL staff. Bank
on the DLR is another candidate.

Hadn't even thought of Bank earlier either! I guess that surface level
stations might be a bit easier to deal with on lower staffing levels,
given the lack of subterranean safety issues. Bring in some non-
frontline bods to do the directing and taking abuse etc and the
operational staff can focus on keeping the station running. BTP for
crowd control etc. Blimey, I've come across all armchair-Transport
Commissioner-ey!


* Extra river bus services will operate, including a "free peak
shuttle" between London Eye - Westminster - Tower Bridge "every 10
minutes between 07:00-10:00 and 15:00-20:00 on both main strike days"
i.e. Wednesday and Thursday.

This has been done before IIRC and was very popular.

So, all the fun of the fair. If it encourages some more people to
'discover' walking or cycling then perhaps there can be some good that
comes from it all. Apols if the tenses got a bit confused above - that
just reflects the uncertainty over whether the strike is going to
happen or not. They keep you on your toes, the RMT, of that one can be
sure.

Given the horrendous weather forecast I would be surprised if there is
much cycling or walking. The buses and trains will be hell on earth
given they get more usage anyway when it rains.


The weather forecast - I hadn't even checked that either! Yep, it's
rubbish - currently Wednesday is a "Light Rain Shower" and Thursday is
a "Heavy Rain Shower". Not ideal for tempting people back on their
bikes, especially if they're not equipped or ready for it. Get out the
brolly, I say!

On Jun 8, 11:45*pm, "Tim Roll-Pickering" T.C.Roll-
wrote:

Paul Corfield wrote:

On Mon, 8 Jun 2009 11:28:54 -0700 (PDT), Mizter T
wrote:
* Most strikingly Oyster PAYG "will be accepted on all National Rail
journeys within Greater London on Wednesday and Thursday, just show
your Oyster card at station gate lines". In practice I'm pretty sure
this means that anyone who can flash an Oyster card can travel on NR
services in London.

I'm sure people will simply be waved through.

What about journeys where one has to go through a set of PAYG readers at one
end but not at the other - e.g. Forest Gate (where readers have been
installed but don't appear to be operational) to Liverpool Street (where the
readers are configured for PAYG for Stratford to Liverpool Street), for
travellers substituting Upton Park to central London?

This was *exactly* the issue I was trying to get at earlier with my
Bowes Park to King's Cross example - except, as Paul C's questioning
showed, it was a bit of a rubbish example.


Will these be automatically reversed or will the PAYG user have to chase it
up - especially as they can't easily do so at Forest Gate.

Paul C suggests in his reply that there might be "a mass reversal of
maximum fares implemented after the strike to remove any such charges"
- i.e. an automatic reversals after the event, with money being
credited back to people's cards.

If you read my reply, you'll see that I wouldn't consider this ideal -
far from it in fact.

My thought was that the very system that results in these £4 charges,
the 'entry charge' system (whereby £4 is debited on entry and the
correct fare is calculated and appropriate sum is refunded on exit) is
disabled for the strike days. Instead the system could go back to how
things were in the early days of PAYG - the system would charge the
minimum fare on touching-in, and then on touching-out any difference
was calculated and the remaining fare deducted. In this system, not
touching in or out would not result in a £4 charge, instead one would
simply be charged the minimum fare from that station. As I said,
that's how I'd do it! But I'm not doing it, so we'll see how it works
out on the day.


[...] (Or could they
nip down to Wanstead Park and touch out on the readers there?)

They could - but it's not really something you could ask people to do!

The easier alternative would be to simply avoid touching in/out at
Liverpool Street, if at all possible - i.e. go through the side gate
if it's open, brandishing Oyster in hand. Depends how they're doing
things on the day there. Afraid I have my doubts that the gateline
staff will completely comprehend the whole picture (not least because
they likely get free travel on the mainline hence don't have to
confront this personally).

Mizter T wrote:

[...] (Or could they
nip down to Wanstead Park and touch out on the readers there?)

They could - but it's not really something you could ask people to do!

True but those in the know (admittedly unlikely in the specific example as
it's the opposite direction from the tubes within walking distance) might
want to take precautions.

The easier alternative would be to simply avoid touching in/out at
Liverpool Street, if at all possible - i.e. go through the side gate
if it's open, brandishing Oyster in hand. Depends how they're doing
things on the day there. Afraid I have my doubts that the gateline
staff will completely comprehend the whole picture (not least because
they likely get free travel on the mainline hence don't have to
confront this personally).

The gateline for the high number platforms at Liverpool Street is frequently
the height of disorganisation - barriers where the Oyster reader is broken
but not marked, too many barriers set for the wrong direction at peak hours
and the staff are further down and difficult to reach and often not the most
responsive. Apart from late in the evening when the barriers are usually
open I don't rate the chances of many trying to get through without touching
out.

On Jun 9, 12:47*pm, "Tim Roll-Pickering" T.C.Roll-
wrote:

Mizter T wrote:
[...] (Or could they
nip down to Wanstead Park and touch out on the readers there?)
They could - but it's not really something you could ask people to do!

True but those in the know (admittedly unlikely in the specific example as
it's the opposite direction from the tubes within walking distance) might
want to take precautions.

Yes, though people 'in the know' going in the central London-bound
direction would therefore also 'need' to take the precaution of
visiting Wanstead Park first and touching-in before heading to Forest
Gate to get a train to Liverpool Street.

Anyway, I'm not sure it would necessarily solve the problem either -
I've just done a search on TfL's "Fare finder" and Wanstead Park to
Liverpool Street, the result being "Your search returned no fares." -
this happens whether you correctly enter the destination as "London
Liverpool Street [National Rail]", or otherwise enter it as "Liverpool
Street [London Underground]".

So I'm not quite sure what would happen were you to do this in
practice. I was of the impression that *all* stations are paired for
Oyster PAYG fares purposes, so either that's not correct - in which
case what actually happens? - or otherwise the Fare finder system only
returns a subset of fares for 'sensible' routes - though I had thought
it showed all fares in the database (that said I have a vague memory
of getting it to refuse showing a fare for another journey).


The easier alternative would be to simply avoid touching in/out at
Liverpool Street, if at all possible - i.e. go through the side gate
if it's open, brandishing Oyster in hand. Depends how they're doing
things on the day there. Afraid I have my doubts that the gateline
staff will completely comprehend the whole picture (not least because
they likely get free travel on the mainline hence don't have to
confront this personally).

The gateline for the high number platforms at Liverpool Street is frequently
the height of disorganisation - barriers where the Oyster reader is broken
but not marked, too many barriers set for the wrong direction at peak hours
and the staff are further down and difficult to reach and often not the most
responsive. Apart from late in the evening when the barriers are usually
open I don't rate the chances of many trying to get through without touching
out.

Doesn't sound too great! It's really annoying when Oyster readers are
broken but not marked - only ever seems to happen at NR gatelines, LU
manage to put the faulty red sticker on it and then get it fixed
pronto.

Re the chances of getting through without touching out (or indeed in)
- it all depends on how the management and staff at Liverpool Street
interpret their instructions I suppose. Elsewhere at say London Bridge
or Victoria it'll be simple - passengers brandishing an Oyster card
must simply be let through (I wouldn't be too surprised to find the
automatic gates simply being left open there).

Mizter T wrote:

Anyway, I'm not sure it would necessarily solve the problem either -
I've just done a search on TfL's "Fare finder" and Wanstead Park to
Liverpool Street, the result being "Your search returned no fares." -
this happens whether you correctly enter the destination as "London
Liverpool Street [National Rail]", or otherwise enter it as "Liverpool
Street [London Underground]".

So I'm not quite sure what would happen were you to do this in
practice. I was of the impression that *all* stations are paired for
Oyster PAYG fares purposes, so either that's not correct - in which
case what actually happens? - or otherwise the Fare finder system only
returns a subset of fares for 'sensible' routes - though I had thought
it showed all fares in the database (that said I have a vague memory
of getting it to refuse showing a fare for another journey).

Is there still a late evening C2C service that runs in & out of Liverpool
Street, using the Forest Gate junction and the GOBLIN to access Barking and
beyond?

Alternatively there have been weekends when the Liverpool Street to Ilford
services aren't running. Catching the GOBLIN to Barking and then taking the
Hammersmith & City to Liverpool Street as an alternative to cramming on the
25 bus surely can't be that "unsensible" a route can it?

"Recliner" wrote in message
...
wrote in message

"Mizter T" wrote in message
...

(P.S. Any chance you can fix your newsgroup program's broken
quoting...)

I am using Outlook Express not sure how to fix it or what you mean?

Try:
Tools Options Send News Sending Format Plain Text Settings Indent the
original text with when replying or forwarding


That setting is already on? What is wrong with my messages? I do not
understand.

wrote in message

"Recliner" wrote in message
...
wrote in message

"Mizter T" wrote in message
...

(P.S. Any chance you can fix your newsgroup program's broken
quoting...)

I am using Outlook Express not sure how to fix it or what you mean?

Try:
Tools Options Send News Sending Format Plain Text Settings
Indent the original text with when replying or forwarding


That setting is already on? What is wrong with my messages? I do not
understand.

This one is fine, but your other messages usually don't have the indents
and chevrons for quoted text from the person you're responding to.

In article
,
(Mizter T) wrote:

Argh, balls, sorry, I couldn't have made more of a mess of that if I'd
tried. I used a stupid example - Bounds Green/Bowes Park to Kings
Cross - as I'd totally failed to take into account the fact that the
whole "GN Electrics" service goes to Moorgate, not King's Cross - at
least that's what happens during the weekday before 10pm (last time I
was on one it was the weekend, hence went to KX).

No matter. It looks like the GN Inners are running normally (This
afternoon anyway)

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On Tue, 9 Jun 2009 05:19:52 -0700 (PDT), Mizter T wrote:

Doesn't sound too great! It's really annoying when Oyster readers are
broken but not marked - only ever seems to happen at NR gatelines, LU
manage to put the faulty red sticker on it and then get it fixed
pronto.

OTOH, NR gates with defective paper ticket mechanisms get closed (and
fixed?) fairly quickly, whereas on LU they seem to take a little
longer to acquire an "Oyster only" sticker.

(Though having said that, the 3rd generation gates (as installed at
Waterloo NR, etc) seem to be particularly rubbish in that area.)