[original thread on uk.railway]
[x-posted to uk.transport.london]

On Jun 8, 7:29*pm, wrote:

On Jun 8, 6:49*pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

"Peter Masson" wrote:

Boris Johnson has announced that Oyster PAYG will be accepted on National
Rail throughout Greater London during the tube strike if it goes ahead.
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/medi...tre/11971.aspx
How will that work? Have all National rail stations now got working Oyster
readers?Is the back office geared up to deduct the correct fare for all
National Rail journeys? If the answer to both questions is yes, why can't
Oyster PAYG on National Rail start immediately?

I just noticed SWT's take on this earlier:

http://www.southwesttrains.co.uk/SWT...ndergroundstri....

"... The services are Feltham to Clapham Junction and Waterloo via Kew
Bridge or via Richmond; and Wimbledon to Clapham Junction and Waterloo. This
includes PAYG and paper tickets.
We shall not be accepting PAYG or paper London Underground tickets at any
other SWT station."

As you say it will be interesting if they actually switch on their PAYG
functionality just for a couple of days, but how else could it work?

As the TfL link just says show your card, I assume that TfL will be
paying the TOCs to accept them, without fares necessarily being
deducted. Of course, SWT

from the link above

For the sake of clarity, that's the TfL news release - which I'll
repeat he
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/medi...tre/11971.aspx


'National Rail

Oyster pay as you go will be accepted on all National Rail journeys
within Greater London on Wednesday and Thursday, just show your Oyster
card at station gate lines.'

There does seem to be a bit of a disagreement between the SWT site
(basically only valid on routes near LU lines) and the TfL site (valid
everywhere), but I can see no info on the Southern, South Eastern or
FCC sites (I gave up checking after these!!), where there are also LU
lines nearby.


Ah, what delightful confusion. It seems that either SWT or TfL don't
understand what they've agreed upon. I assume that this contingency
plan for Oyster PAYG to be accepted on NR was negotiated some time
ago, presumably between TfL and ATOC acting on behalf of all the
London TOCs - it is after all the 'nuclear option', as it were. If so,
then perhaps there's been some misunderstanding of it after it was
taken off the shelf and dusted off - but if so, is that
misunderstanding SWT's or TfL's part (I'd wager on the former! But
maybe not, and Boris/TfL are chancing/pushing it?).

Alternatively, perhaps the agreement was struck more recently, what
with the threat of a looming strike. (Could it even have been struck
by a Boris administration, aware of the potential of forthcoming
trouble?) If it's been struck more recently, then it's shabby that
they can't sing from teh same hymn sheet.

Regardless, this is a stupid situation - if TfL are proclaiming that,
then SWT can't penalise people for following that advice. If they do,
then there'll be a lot of penalty fares appeals!

FWIW, I can certainly see the logic in restricting the acceptance of
Oyster card holders to only some routes - the Tube network doesn't go
anywhere near Surbiton after all.

The National Rail Website says the following:

Oyster Card 'Pay as you go' will be accepted on National Rail journeys
in Greater London.


I would therefore say that iy is all of National Rail.

Peter

"collybs" wrote in message
...
The National Rail Website says the following:

Oyster Card 'Pay as you go' will be accepted on National Rail journeys
in Greater London.


I would therefore say that iy is all of National Rail.

Peter

Can anybody say if Chingford has Oyster readers or not?
NEAX website they will be installed by Spring 2008, TfL website map says no
Oyster availability there yet. Considering it is only 4 stops from
Walthamstow Central on an isolated line it would make some sense to have it
there but we are talking about rail firms here.

Think I will print out and take the TfL page saying Oyster can be used on
NR, just in case....

Nick

On Jun 9, 9:46*am, "Nick P"
wrote:

"collybs" wrote:

The National Rail Website says the following:

Oyster Card 'Pay as you go' will be accepted on National Rail journeys
in Greater London.

I would therefore say that iy is all of National Rail.


Can anybody say if Chingford has Oyster readers or not?
NEAX website they will be installed by Spring 2008, TfL website map says no
Oyster availability there yet. Considering it is only 4 stops from
Walthamstow Central on an isolated line it would make some sense to have it
there but we are talking about rail firms here.

Think I will print out and take the TfL page saying Oyster can be used on
NR, just in case....

If any Oyster readers have been installed at Chingford, they will
*not* be available for public use yet - they will likely be covered up
and turned off. Oyster PAYG has not gone live across the National Rail
network in London - this is now not expected to happen until some time
next year, i.e. 2010.

Oyster PAYG being accepted on NR during the strike days is a bit of a
misnomer - in essence if you have an Oyster card you will simply be
waved through.

There is a question mark about what will happen on routes where Oyster
PAYG is accepted for only part of the route - e.g. the Chingford
branch and the other NXEA branches in NE London are an example - if
the passenger uses their Oyster card at only one end of the journey,
i.e. at Liverpool Street, and whether this would incur the £4 charge
for an unresolved journey (actually a higher £5 charge applies from
the relevant London termini stations).

How this will be dealt with is unclear - it's possible that TfL will
do a mass refund of erroneously applied charges after the strike,
which would be automatically applied as much as possible. I think
there could be another possible solution to this as well, but as we
don't know how this will be dealt with so it's all just speculation at
the moment.

Perhaps the best way of avoiding this issue is to try and avoid using
the automatic gates at Liverpool Street and go through the side gate
instead. This of course depends upon how things are done on the day at
Liverpool Street, and whether staff allow you through the side gates
when simply brandishing an Oyster card.

On Jun 8, 9:28*pm, Mizter T wrote:
[original thread on uk.railway]
[x-posted to uk.transport.london]

On Jun 8, 7:29*pm, wrote:





On Jun 8, 6:49*pm, "Paul Scott"
wrote:

"Peter Masson" wrote:

Boris Johnson has announced that Oyster PAYG will be accepted on National
Rail throughout Greater London during the tube strike if it goes ahead.
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/medi...tre/11971.aspx
How will that work? Have all National rail stations now got working Oyster
readers?Is the back office geared up to deduct the correct fare for all
National Rail journeys? If the answer to both questions is yes, why can't
Oyster PAYG on National Rail start immediately?

I just noticed SWT's take on this earlier:

http://www.southwesttrains.co.uk/SWT...ndergroundstri....

"... The services are Feltham to Clapham Junction and Waterloo via Kew
Bridge or via Richmond; and Wimbledon to Clapham Junction and Waterloo. This
includes PAYG and paper tickets.
We shall not be accepting PAYG or paper London Underground tickets at any
other SWT station."

As you say it will be interesting if they actually switch on their PAYG
functionality just for a couple of days, but how else could it work?

As the TfL link just says show your card, I assume that TfL will be
paying the TOCs to accept them, without fares necessarily being
deducted. Of course, SWT

from the link above

For the sake of clarity, that's the TfL news release - which I'll
repeat hehttp://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/medi...tre/11971.aspx



'National Rail

Oyster pay as you go will be accepted on all National Rail journeys
within Greater London on Wednesday and Thursday, just show your Oyster
card at station gate lines.'

There does seem to be a bit of a disagreement between the SWT site
(basically only valid on routes near LU lines) and the TfL site (valid
everywhere), but I can see no info on the Southern, South Eastern or
FCC sites (I gave up checking after these!!), where there are also LU
lines nearby.

Ah, what delightful confusion. It seems that either SWT or TfL don't
understand what they've agreed upon. I assume that this contingency
plan for Oyster PAYG to be accepted on NR was negotiated some time
ago, presumably between TfL and ATOC acting on behalf of all the
London TOCs - it is after all the 'nuclear option', as it were. If so,
then perhaps there's been some misunderstanding of it after it was
taken off the shelf and dusted off - but if so, is that
misunderstanding SWT's or TfL's part (I'd wager on the former! But
maybe not, and Boris/TfL are chancing/pushing it?).

Alternatively, perhaps the agreement was struck more recently, what
with the threat of a looming strike. (Could it even have been struck
by a Boris administration, aware of the potential of forthcoming
trouble?) If it's been struck more recently, then it's shabby that
they can't sing from teh same hymn sheet.

Regardless, this is a stupid situation - if TfL are proclaiming that,
then SWT can't penalise people for following that advice. If they do,
then there'll be a lot of penalty fares appeals!

FWIW, I can certainly see the logic in restricting the acceptance of
Oyster card holders to only some routes - the Tube network doesn't go
anywhere near Surbiton after all.

Southeastern seem to have taken matters into their own hands in quite
a forceful way:

http://www.southeasternrailway.co.uk..._items/view/95

Southeastern has agreed to accept valid tickets for the Underground –
both paper tickets and Oyster Pay As You Go – on services that mirror
Tube routes on our network.

So during the strike we will accept London Underground passes
(including Oyster PAYG) during the strike on the following routes
only:

Brixton to Victoria
Elephant and Castle to Blackfriars / City Thameslink
London Cannon Street / Waterloo East / Charing Cross
Outside these routes the usual ticket restrictions and Penalty Fares
will be applicable as normal.

wrote

Southeastern seem to have taken matters into their own hands in quite
a forceful way:

http://www.southeasternrailway.co.uk..._items/view/95

Southeastern has agreed to accept valid tickets for the Underground -
both paper tickets and Oyster Pay As You Go - on services that mirror
Tube routes on our network.

So during the strike we will accept London Underground passes
(including Oyster PAYG) during the strike on the following routes
only:

Brixton to Victoria
Elephant and Castle to Blackfriars / City Thameslink
London Cannon Street / Waterloo East / Charing Cross

------
Unless either TfL, or SWT and Southeastern, change their advice (and in the
case of TfL, publicise any changes very clearly) I can foresee big
arguments.
What about a passenger whose normal route, using PAYG because he only
travels two or three days a week, so a season ticket is uneconomic, is bus
to North Greenwich then Jubilee Line to Bond Street. A sensible alternative
route would be Southeastern from Charlton to Victoria, changing at
Blackheath, then bus or walk. IMHO that route mirrors the passenger's normal
tube route, and even on their restricted view, Southeastern should allow it.

Peter.

In message
,
writes
Southeastern seem to have taken matters into their own hands in quite
a forceful way:

http://www.southeasternrailway.co.uk..._items/view/95

Southeastern has agreed to accept valid tickets for the Underground –
both paper tickets and Oyster Pay As You Go – on services that mirror
Tube routes on our network.

So during the strike we will accept London Underground passes
(including Oyster PAYG) during the strike on the following routes
only:

Brixton to Victoria
Elephant and Castle to Blackfriars / City Thameslink
London Cannon Street / Waterloo East / Charing Cross
Outside these routes the usual ticket restrictions and Penalty Fares
will be applicable as normal.

Hmm. I need to get from Luton to central London on Thursday - I'm
planning to go from Luton to London Bridge (valid on a ticket to "London
Thameslink") and then get a train to Charing Cross. Is this a
Southeastern route? I have an Oyster card I can show, but I don't see
how they can charge it unless there are readers both on platforms 5/6 at
London Bridge and the exits at Charing Cross. As far as I recall, they
don't yet exist at either, does anyone know?

London Bridge to Waterloo East/Charing Cross is a pretty clear parallel
to a tube journey, I'd have said.


--
Clive Page

On Jun 9, 3:36*pm, Clive Page wrote:
http://www.southeasternrailway.co.uk..._items/view/95

Southeastern has agreed to accept valid tickets for the Underground –
both paper tickets and Oyster Pay As You Go – on services that mirror
Tube routes on our network.

So during the strike we will accept London Underground passes
(including Oyster PAYG) during the strike on the following routes
only:

Brixton to Victoria
Elephant and Castle to Blackfriars / City Thameslink
London Cannon Street / Waterloo East / Charing Cross

This should say "London Bridge to Cannon...". Some muppet in SN's PR
department has managed to drag and drop "Bridge to" into the next
paragraph down.

Outside these routes the usual ticket restrictions and Penalty Fares
will be applicable as normal.

Hmm. *I need to get from Luton to central London on Thursday - I'm
planning to go from Luton to London Bridge (valid on a ticket to "London
Thameslink") and then get a train to Charing Cross. *Is this a
Southeastern route? * I have an Oyster card I can show, but I don't see
how they can charge it unless there are readers both on platforms 5/6 at
London Bridge and the exits at Charing Cross. *As far as I recall, they
don't yet exist at either, does anyone know?

There are certainly Oyster readers on the exists at Charing Cross;
what their PAYG status will be tonight/tomorrow/Thursday I don't know.
And there are certainly validators by the platforms that FCC use at
London Bridge.

London Bridge to Waterloo East/Charing Cross is a pretty clear parallel
to a tube journey, I'd have said.

Yup indeed.

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

On Jun 9, 3:36*pm, Clive Page wrote:
In message
,
writes





Southeastern seem to have taken matters into their own hands in quite
a forceful way:

http://www.southeasternrailway.co.uk..._items/view/95

Southeastern has agreed to accept valid tickets for the Underground –
both paper tickets and Oyster Pay As You Go – on services that mirror
Tube routes on our network.

So during the strike we will accept London Underground passes
(including Oyster PAYG) during the strike on the following routes
only:

Brixton to Victoria
Elephant and Castle to Blackfriars / City Thameslink
London Cannon Street / Waterloo East / Charing Cross
Outside these routes the usual ticket restrictions and Penalty Fares
will be applicable as normal.

Hmm. *I need to get from Luton to central London on Thursday - I'm
planning to go from Luton to London Bridge (valid on a ticket to "London
Thameslink") and then get a train to Charing Cross. *Is this a
Southeastern route? * I have an Oyster card I can show, but I don't see
how they can charge it unless there are readers both on platforms 5/6 at
London Bridge and the exits at Charing Cross. *As far as I recall, they
don't yet exist at either, does anyone know?

London Bridge to Waterloo East/Charing Cross is a pretty clear parallel
to a tube journey, I'd have said.

It's on the list I've quoted above, so I can't imagine that one being
controversial. Perhaps print off that page from the Southeastern
website?

The lack of validators isn't relevant in this case as the guidance
everywhere seems to be 'just show your Oyster at the gateline rather
than touching it [and you won't get charged anything]'.

For the record, both Charing Cross and London Bridge do have Oyster-
enabled gates, but at the moment they are the 'dumb' sort of readers
that just check whether a valid season is loaded on the Oyster in
question (rather than handling the complexities of PAYG).

On Jun 9, 3:36*pm, Clive Page wrote:

In message
,
writes

Southeastern seem to have taken matters into their own hands in quite
a forceful way:

http://www.southeasternrailway.co.uk..._items/view/95

Southeastern has agreed to accept valid tickets for the Underground –
both paper tickets and Oyster Pay As You Go – on services that mirror
Tube routes on our network.

So during the strike we will accept London Underground passes
(including Oyster PAYG) during the strike on the following routes
only:

Brixton to Victoria
Elephant and Castle to Blackfriars / City Thameslink
London Cannon Street / Waterloo East / Charing Cross
Outside these routes the usual ticket restrictions and Penalty Fares
will be applicable as normal.

Hmm. *I need to get from Luton to central London on Thursday - I'm
planning to go from Luton to London Bridge (valid on a ticket to "London
Thameslink") and then get a train to Charing Cross. *Is this a
Southeastern route? * I have an Oyster card I can show, but I don't see
how they can charge it unless there are readers both on platforms 5/6 at
London Bridge and the exits at Charing Cross. *As far as I recall, they
don't yet exist at either, does anyone know?

There are Oyster readers on the Thameslink platforms at London Bridge
*but* these are _only_ for people starting or finishing their journey
on FCC Thameslink and who were using Oyster PAYG to pay for their
journey (it's valid for all stations on teh Tha,eslink route between
West Hampstead and London Bridge/ Elephant & Castle) - so *don't*
touch-in on them.

When you get to Charing Cross, the gates of course have Oyster readers
on them *but* these are _only_ equipped to check and see if there is a
season Travelcard held on that ticket - currently they *do not* handle
Oyster PAYG, because Oyster PAYG is not normally valid on any mainline
trains out of Charing Cross.


London Bridge to Waterloo East/Charing Cross is a pretty clear parallel
to a tube journey, I'd have said.

Yes. Simply show your Oyster card on arrival at Charing Cross. You
won't end up paying anything.