From the South London Press:

http://www.southlondonpress.co.uk/tn...exit%20closure

THOUSANDS of commuters will be inconvenienced by a proposed station
exit closure, it is claimed.

The way out on Lewisham station’s platform four lets travellers leave
without having to go through the main concourse.

But Southeastern trains is consulting on plans to close the station’s
second exit, which is on its north side.

Platform four users would be left having to use five flights of steps
and a subway to get out of the station.

Tony Aldous, of Eliot Hill, Lewisham, regularly gets off the train at
the platform.

He said: “It’s the most convenient exit for people living north of the
station.

"Thousands of travellers will have to take a long detour.

“It would cause real inconvenience – Lewisham is easily a big enough
and busy enough station to have two exits.

“The consultation process has been chaotic as they haven’t said what
they would put in its place.”

The changes are designed to cut fare dodging and come ahead of new
ticket gates being installed.

Politicians in the borough have started a campaign to challenge
Southeastern’s proposal.

Lewisham Mayor Sir Steve Bullock and deputy mayor Heidi Alexander were
at the station on Friday collecting petition signatures against the
exit closure.

Councillor Alexander said: “Southeastern are carrying out a lot of
really good work at Lewisham.

“But they need to realise that a seemingly small change like this can
have a big impact on thousands of people’s journeys.”

Southeastern has been forced to extend its consultation process about
the project until June 22 amid the criticism.

A spokesman said the exit closure was being considered as there was
not enough space to update its ticket barrier.

He said: “We appreciate there are a lot of concerns and recognise the
inconvenience that may be caused, but it is for safety reasons.”

The final decision on the station plans will be made by the Department
of Transport with recommendations from Southeastern.

==========================================

"Safety reasons" sounds like a total cop-out to me. The exit from
platform 4 that they plan to leave open is extremely narrow and can't
deal with the numbers of people using it currently, let alone doubling
those numbers. Having said that, not sure where they get five flights
of stairs from for an exit; it's only two (one down from the platform
and one up to the ticket hall).

Similar dramas have happened at Forest Hill and Sydenham where train
companies have tried to close well-used exits so they can put ticket
gates in. I would have more sympathy if they were actually going to
staff the ticket gates around the clock rather than leave them open
after about 8pm.

Patrick

On 11 June, 13:56, Patrick Osborne wrote:
From the South London Press:

http://www.southlondonpress.co.uk/tn...headline=Prote....

THOUSANDS of commuters will be inconvenienced by a proposed station
exit closure, it is claimed.

The way out on Lewisham station’s platform four lets travellers leave
without having to go through the main concourse.

But Southeastern trains is consulting on plans to close the station’s
second exit, which is on its north side.

Platform four users would be left having to use five flights of steps
and a subway to get out of the station.

Tony Aldous, of Eliot Hill, Lewisham, regularly gets off the train at
the platform.

He said: “It’s the most convenient exit for people living north of the
station.

"Thousands of travellers will have to take a long detour.

“It would cause real inconvenience – Lewisham is easily a big enough
and busy enough station to have two exits.

“The consultation process has been chaotic as they haven’t said what
they would put in its place.”

The changes are designed to cut fare dodging and come ahead of new
ticket gates being installed.

Politicians in the borough have started a campaign to challenge
Southeastern’s proposal.

Lewisham Mayor Sir Steve Bullock and deputy mayor Heidi Alexander were
at the station on Friday collecting petition signatures against the
exit closure.

Councillor Alexander said: “Southeastern are carrying out a lot of
really good work at Lewisham.

“But they need to realise that a seemingly small change like this can
have a big impact on thousands of people’s journeys.”

Southeastern has been forced to extend its consultation process about
the project until June 22 amid the criticism.

A spokesman said the exit closure was being considered as there was
not enough space to update its ticket barrier.

He said: “We appreciate there are a lot of concerns and recognise the
inconvenience that may be caused, but it is for safety reasons.”

The final decision on the station plans will be made by the Department
of Transport with recommendations from Southeastern.

==========================================

"Safety reasons" sounds like a total cop-out to me. *The exit from
platform 4 that they plan to leave open is extremely narrow and can't
deal with the numbers of people using it currently, let alone doubling
those numbers. *Having said that, not sure where they get five flights
of stairs from for an exit; it's only two (one down from the platform
and one up to the ticket hall).

Similar dramas have happened at Forest Hill and Sydenham where train
companies have tried to close well-used exits so they can put ticket
gates in. *I would have more sympathy if they were actually going to
staff the ticket gates around the clock rather than leave them open
after about 8pm.

Patrick

I mentioned this in the thread about Tulse Hill. The exit from
platorm 4 has been slightly rebuilt and widened recently, and actually
it's the alternative staircase to the main exit that is a cramped and
dangerous bottleneck. It would be impossible to close the platform 4
exit before they reopen the second staircase where they are installing
the lift. It could take ten minutes to get off the platform and it
would be very dangerous.

Nevertheless, it would be better if they didn't close it at all.
Revenue protection is nonsense, because there has never been any
interest in revenue protection at any exit from Lewisham, except every
few months when there is a squad of grippers, and I am pretty sure
they only ever turn up on request from the Police when they want the
crowd slowed down to search for someone.

It's evident that at least three quarters of the rush hour crowds
leaving trains at platform 4 use the exit that is planned for
closure. It avoids cramped staircases, it leads to the more
residential areas and it leads directly to Tescos.

Given that any barriers will always be open anyway, given the general
staffing and ticket checking situation that has always existed, all
they need is a standalone Oyster reader for the platform 4 exit.

I wonder what they are going to do about the barriering the staircases
near the lifts at platforms 4 and 1 anyway, whenever those finally
reopen?

In message
, at
05:56:46 on Thu, 11 Jun 2009, Patrick Osborne
remarked:

"Thousands of travellers will have to take a long detour.

Same old story every time a station gets barriers. We've seen it
recently at York, and I'm pretty sure the "back gate" [to the car park]
at Nottingham will get closed as soon as the station is barriered).
--
Roland Perry

On Jun 11, 2:26*pm, MIG wrote:

On 11 June, 13:56, Patrick Osborne wrote:

From the South London Press:

http://www.southlondonpress.co.uk/tn...headline=Prote...

THOUSANDS of commuters will be inconvenienced by a proposed station
exit closure, it is claimed.

The way out on Lewisham station’s platform four lets travellers leave
without having to go through the main concourse.

But Southeastern trains is consulting on plans to close the station’s
second exit, which is on its north side.

Platform four users would be left having to use five flights of steps
and a subway to get out of the station.

Tony Aldous, of Eliot Hill, Lewisham, regularly gets off the train at
the platform.

He said: “It’s the most convenient exit for people living north of the
station.

"Thousands of travellers will have to take a long detour.

“It would cause real inconvenience – Lewisham is easily a big enough
and busy enough station to have two exits.

“The consultation process has been chaotic as they haven’t said what
they would put in its place.”

The changes are designed to cut fare dodging and come ahead of new
ticket gates being installed.

Politicians in the borough have started a campaign to challenge
Southeastern’s proposal.

Lewisham Mayor Sir Steve Bullock and deputy mayor Heidi Alexander were
at the station on Friday collecting petition signatures against the
exit closure.

Councillor Alexander said: “Southeastern are carrying out a lot of
really good work at Lewisham.

“But they need to realise that a seemingly small change like this can
have a big impact on thousands of people’s journeys.”

Southeastern has been forced to extend its consultation process about
the project until June 22 amid the criticism.

A spokesman said the exit closure was being considered as there was
not enough space to update its ticket barrier.

He said: “We appreciate there are a lot of concerns and recognise the
inconvenience that may be caused, but it is for safety reasons.”

The final decision on the station plans will be made by the Department
of Transport with recommendations from Southeastern.

==========================================

"Safety reasons" sounds like a total cop-out to me. *The exit from
platform 4 that they plan to leave open is extremely narrow and can't
deal with the numbers of people using it currently, let alone doubling
those numbers. *Having said that, not sure where they get five flights
of stairs from for an exit; it's only two (one down from the platform
and one up to the ticket hall).

Similar dramas have happened at Forest Hill and Sydenham where train
companies have tried to close well-used exits so they can put ticket
gates in. *I would have more sympathy if they were actually going to
staff the ticket gates around the clock rather than leave them open
after about 8pm.

I mentioned this in the thread about Tulse Hill. *The exit from
platorm 4 has been slightly rebuilt and widened recently, and actually
it's the alternative staircase to the main exit that is a cramped and
dangerous bottleneck. *It would be impossible to close the platform 4
exit before they reopen the second staircase where they are installing
the lift. *It could take ten minutes to get off the platform and it
would be very dangerous.

There's simply zero chance of it being closed until the second
staircase (built as part of the DLR extension works at Lewisham) re-
opens.

Perhaps the rebuilding of the platform 4 exit would have happened
regardless, as presumably it would become an emergency evacuation
route.


Nevertheless, it would be better if they didn't close it at all.
Revenue protection is nonsense, because there has never been any
interest in revenue protection at any exit from Lewisham, except every
few months when there is a squad of grippers, and I am pretty sure
they only ever turn up on request from the Police when they want the
crowd slowed down to search for someone.

You said this before and I never got round to taking issue with you.
My experience of Lewisham is of RPI teams appearing to mount periodic
blockades of the station which can last a week or indeed longer. I
don't concur with your comments about it being done by police request,
simply because I've come across such blockades without any police
around - or if there are police then they're in the background, not
checking out each and every passenger.

(I'm not suggesting that co-ordinated blockades don't happen - they
do, but my experience of Lewisham is that I saw blockades happening at
other times too.)



It's evident that at least three quarters of the rush hour crowds
leaving trains at platform 4 use the exit that is planned for
closure. *It avoids cramped staircases, it leads to the more
residential areas and it leads directly to Tescos.

Agreed it's very well used. Unless one is interchanging to the Hayes
line or to the DLR, or going to get a cab, or perhaps heading to the
bus stop directly outside the station, then the side entrance is by
far and away the quicker escape route.


Given that any barriers will always be open anyway, given the general
staffing and ticket checking situation that has always existed, all
they need is a standalone Oyster reader for the platform 4 exit.

?

If automatic barriers/gates (call them what you will) are installed
they will be operational for peak time flows, and staff will be
provided to ensure this happens (indeed in new franchise agreements
this staffing expense appears to be specifically costed for by the
DfT). I agree that NR gates often don't appear to be manned in the
evening, and sometimes aren't manned in the middle of the day either.
And weekends are different too.


I wonder what they are going to do about the barriering the staircases
near the lifts at platforms 4 and 1 anyway, whenever those finally
reopen?

Is there any actual plan for Lewisham to be fully gated? If so, I
haven't come across it. I'd find it a hard station to try and gate -
as you say, it's the extra staircases (currently closed for the lift
works) which open out on to the concourse above the DLR that'd cause
the major issues.

Even if the station isn't being gated, I can perhaps understand the
logic that might suggest closing the p4 exit as it's easier to mount
ticket checks at the other exits. That's not to say I like it.

On 11 June, 15:54, Mizter T wrote:
On Jun 11, 2:26*pm, MIG wrote:
much cut

Nevertheless, it would be better if they didn't close it at all.
Revenue protection is nonsense, because there has never been any
interest in revenue protection at any exit from Lewisham, except every
few months when there is a squad of grippers, and I am pretty sure
they only ever turn up on request from the Police when they want the
crowd slowed down to search for someone.

You said this before and I never got round to taking issue with you.
My experience of Lewisham is of RPI teams appearing to mount periodic
blockades of the station which can last a week or indeed longer. I
don't concur with your comments about it being done by police request,
simply because I've come across such blockades without any police
around - or if there are police then they're in the background, not
checking out each and every passenger.

(I'm not suggesting that co-ordinated blockades don't happen - they
do, but my experience of Lewisham is that I saw blockades happening at
other times too.)

Obviously I am not there every day or every time of day, so I don't
see all the checks that may happen. You are right that there was one
period in the last year or two when grippers were there every day for
a few weeks and I am guessing that was a campaign carried out by and
for the operators. I don't remember any other period like that.

Apart from that intensive period, the one-off checks that I can think
of in the last couple of years, usually in the evening, have involved
sniffer dogs. The check slows the crowd down, the dogs sniff them and
the police stand back. There was also a demonstration of scanning
equipment for a while.

"Patrick Osborne" wrote in message
...
From the South London Press:

http://www.southlondonpress.co.uk/tn...exit%20closure

THOUSANDS of commuters will be inconvenienced by a proposed station
exit closure, it is claimed.

snip

Patrick
----------

It would be really nice if they finish installing the lifts and reopen the
exit on platform 1. Just how many years can one simple project take?

MaxB

On 11 June, 15:54, Mizter T wrote:
On Jun 11, 2:26*pm, MIG wrote:





On 11 June, 13:56, Patrick Osborne wrote:

From the South London Press:

http://www.southlondonpress.co.uk/tn...headline=Prote...

THOUSANDS of commuters will be inconvenienced by a proposed station
exit closure, it is claimed.

The way out onLewishamstation’s platform four lets travellers leave
without having to go through the main concourse.

But Southeastern trains is consulting on plans to close the station’s
second exit, which is on its north side.

Platform four users would be left having to use five flights of steps
and a subway to get out of the station.

Tony Aldous, of Eliot Hill,Lewisham, regularly gets off the train at
the platform.

He said: “It’s the most convenient exit for people living north of the
station.

"Thousands of travellers will have to take a long detour.

“It would cause real inconvenience –Lewishamis easily a big enough
and busy enough station to have two exits.

“The consultation process has been chaotic as they haven’t said what
they would put in its place.”

The changes are designed to cut fare dodging and come ahead of new
ticket gates being installed.

Politicians in the borough have started a campaign to challenge
Southeastern’s proposal.

LewishamMayor Sir Steve Bullock and deputy mayor Heidi Alexander were
at the station on Friday collecting petition signatures against the
exit closure.

Councillor Alexander said: “Southeastern are carrying out a lot of
really good work atLewisham.

“But they need to realise that a seemingly small change like this can
have a big impact on thousands of people’s journeys.”

Southeastern has been forced to extend its consultation process about
the project until June 22 amid the criticism.

A spokesman said the exit closure was being considered as there was
not enough space to update its ticket barrier.

He said: “We appreciate there are a lot of concerns and recognise the
inconvenience that may be caused, but it is for safety reasons.”

The final decision on the station plans will be made by the Department
of Transport with recommendations from Southeastern.

==========================================

"Safety reasons" sounds like a total cop-out to me. *The exit from
platform 4 that they plan to leave open is extremely narrow and can't
deal with the numbers of people using it currently, let alone doubling
those numbers. *Having said that, not sure where they get five flights
of stairs from for an exit; it's only two (one down from the platform
and one up to the ticket hall).

Similar dramas have happened at Forest Hill and Sydenham where train
companies have tried to close well-used exits so they can put ticket
gates in. *I would have more sympathy if they were actually going to
staff the ticket gates around the clock rather than leave them open
after about 8pm.

I mentioned this in the thread about Tulse Hill. *The exit from
platorm 4 has been slightly rebuilt and widened recently, and actually
it's the alternative staircase to the main exit that is a cramped and
dangerous bottleneck. *It would be impossible to close the platform 4
exit before they reopen the second staircase where they are installing
the lift. *It could take ten minutes to get off the platform and it
would be very dangerous.

There's simply zero chance of it being closed until the second
staircase (built as part of the DLR extension works atLewisham) re-
opens.

Perhaps the rebuilding of the platform 4 exit would have happened
regardless, as presumably it would become an emergency evacuation
route.



Nevertheless, it would be better if they didn't close it at all.
Revenue protection is nonsense, because there has never been any
interest in revenue protection at any exit fromLewisham, except every
few months when there is a squad of grippers, and I am pretty sure
they only ever turn up on request from the Police when they want the
crowd slowed down to search for someone.

You said this before and I never got round to taking issue with you.
My experience ofLewishamis of RPI teams appearing to mount periodic
blockades of the station which can last a week or indeed longer. I
don't concur with your comments about it being done by police request,
simply because I've come across such blockades without any police
around - or if there are police then they're in the background, not
checking out each and every passenger.

(I'm not suggesting that co-ordinated blockades don't happen - they
do, but my experience ofLewishamis that I saw blockades happening at
other times too.)



It's evident that at least three quarters of the rush hour crowds
leaving trains at platform 4 use the exit that is planned for
closure. *It avoids cramped staircases, it leads to the more
residential areas and it leads directly to Tescos.

Agreed it's very well used. Unless one is interchanging to the Hayes
line or to the DLR, or going to get a cab, or perhaps heading to the
bus stop directly outside the station, then the side entrance is by
far and away the quicker escape route.



Given that any barriers will always be open anyway, given the general
staffing and ticket checking situation that has always existed, all
they need is a standalone Oyster reader for the platform 4 exit.

?

If automatic barriers/gates (call them what you will) are installed
they will be operational for peak time flows, and staff will be
provided to ensure this happens (indeed in new franchise agreements
this staffing expense appears to be specifically costed for by the
DfT). I agree that NR gates often don't appear to be manned in the
evening, and sometimes aren't manned in the middle of the day either.
And weekends are different too.



I wonder what they are going to do about the barriering the staircases
near the lifts at platforms 4 and 1 anyway, whenever those finally
reopen?

Is there any actual plan forLewishamto be fully gated? If so, I
haven't come across it. I'd find it a hard station to try and gate -
as you say, it's the extra staircases (currently closed for the lift
works) which open out on to the concourse above the DLR that'd cause
the major issues.

Even if the station isn't being gated, I can perhaps understand the
logic that might suggest closing the p4 exit as it's easier to mount
ticket checks at the other exits. That's not to say I like it.-

London Travelwatch has now sent its recommendations to the DfT. I
have looked for a Web link but can't find one. I know they did
because I got round to responding to the consultation and got emailed
as a result with a copy of a letter to Southeastern. It's a lot to
paste, so I haven't. I could ...

They seem to be rather miffed that, having been asked by Southeastern
to be the independent coordinator, they were given wrong and
inconsistent information about whether there were plans for the new
exit from platform 4 to give access to the Tescos car park. They are
not happy that they gave wrong information to enquirers as a result.

Basically, their recommendation says everything I would have said plus
more things that I agree with. They want the ramp to stay open with
an Oyster reader unless the new gated exit gives access to the Tescos
car park as well as the DLR.

Their miffedness seems to have made them stick the boot in a bit,
although some criticisms go back to BR or Connex days, particularly
the haphazardness of developments.

That is, I think it was under BR that trains started running to the
far end of platform 4, despite the main entrance, the benches and the
PIS all being at the unused end of the platform (which still catches
people out, who have to chase the trains if they are physically
capable).

And I think it was Connex that originally blocked DLR proposals to
install lifts.

But it's the current Southeastern that boarded up the old ticket
office instead of making it into waiting room (not something that
occurred to me either, but a good point).

I find that the only time that the ramp isn't currently the best exit
from platform 4 is if one is changing for Ladywell/Hither Green routes
from a train from the Peckham direction, which is relatively uncommon.

For anything else, even DLR and all buses, it's quicker and easier to
go round from the platform 4 ramp (plus many buses go from near the
bottom of that ramp as well, eg 180, 199).