I'll be taking a train to Watford Junction next week using Oyster
pre-pay, and then continuing the journey on a charter train (paper
ticket) -- would I be correct in assuming that there are Oyster
validators on the platforms so I don't have to leave and re-enter the
barriered zone (and vice versa on my return)?

On Thu, 18 Jun 2009 13:18:56 +0100,
Recliner wrote:
I'll be taking a train to Watford Junction next week using Oyster
pre-pay, and then continuing the journey on a charter train (paper
ticket) -- would I be correct in assuming that there are Oyster
validators on the platforms so I don't have to leave and re-enter the
barriered zone (and vice versa on my return)?

There are validators on platforms 1-4 DC line (I think - I almost never
use those platforms)
There is a validator on platform 9(&10) where the carpark entrance is.
And there are validators in the subway joining the platforms.

AFAIAA there are no validators on any of the other platforms.

But, you are correct, you do not have to exit and reenter the barriered
zone to touch.

Word of warnings - if you touch on a validator in the subway and then
decide to temporarily leave by the manual gate but touch again you'll
"reenter". (I found this out to my cost when the manual gate validator
had been broken for several days. I touched in the subway on my way out
but then was told to touch again on the manual gate - because it had
been repaired - and ended up with an unresolved journey)

(Dont know whay will happen if you touch in the subway and then leave by
the automatic barrier - presumably in that case it's intelligent enough
to realize that Exit-Exit is just a single exit, it's just
"Exit?Entry-Exit?Entry" where it gets confused.)

Tim.

--
God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t,"
and there was light.

http://www.woodall.me.uk/

On Jun 18, 1:33*pm, Tim Woodall wrote:

On Thu, 18 Jun 2009 13:18:56 +0100,
* * Recliner wrote: I'll be taking a train to Watford Junction next week using Oyster
pre-pay, and then continuing the journey on a charter train (paper
ticket) -- would I be correct in assuming that there are Oyster
validators on the platforms so I don't have to leave and re-enter the
barriered zone (and vice versa on my return)?

There are validators on platforms 1-4 DC line (I think - I almost never
use those platforms)

There are validators on the DC line platforms, yes.

There is a validator on platform 9(&10) where the carpark entrance is.
And there are validators in the subway joining the platforms.

AFAIAA there are no validators on any of the other platforms.

But, you are correct, you do not have to exit and reenter the barriered
zone to touch.

Word of warnings - if you touch on a validator in the subway and then
decide to temporarily leave by the manual gate but touch again you'll
"reenter". (I found this out to my cost when the manual gate validator
had been broken for several days. I touched in the subway on my way out
but then was told to touch again on the manual gate - because it had
been repaired - and ended up with an unresolved journey)

(Dont know what will happen if you touch in the subway and then leave by
the automatic barrier - presumably in that case it's intelligent enough
to realize that Exit-Exit is just a single exit, it's just
"Exit?Entry-Exit?Entry" where it gets confused.)

It should treat a touch on a standalone validator and then another one
on the gate as an exit, yes - this is how it works elsewhere (the
point being that the gates are definitively unidirectional - you're
either exiting the system or entering the system). Again, if you touch-
in on the gates then do so again on a standalone validator then it
should just treat them both as entries to the system.

N.B. The validator next to the manual gate (and possibly those next to
the car park) might be configured differently to the other standalone
validators - the validator at the manual gate providing a definitive
'hard' exit or entry to the system, whilst the other validators may
well be in 'interchange mode' and so just provide 'soft' entries and
exits, so you can touch on them as many times as possible with no ill-
effect. Err... that said, if that was the case then touching-out on
the validator in the subway then again on the reader next to the
manual gate shouldn't have caused a problem- not according to my logic
at least. Hmm.

On Thu, 18 Jun 2009 06:28:01 -0700 (PDT),
Mizter T wrote:

On Jun 18, 1:33*pm, Tim Woodall wrote:

On Thu, 18 Jun 2009 13:18:56 +0100,
* * Recliner wrote: I'll be taking a train to Watford Junction next week using Oyster
pre-pay, and then continuing the journey on a charter train (paper
ticket) -- would I be correct in assuming that there are Oyster
validators on the platforms so I don't have to leave and re-enter the
barriered zone (and vice versa on my return)?

There are validators on platforms 1-4 DC line (I think - I almost never
use those platforms)

There are validators on the DC line platforms, yes.

Yes. I'm 99% certain there are some there but I could be imagining
things. I can never think of any circumstance where they would make
sense for me to use therefore, while I'm pretty sure I've seen them I've
not made a mental note "that is where they are"

Word of warnings - if you touch on a validator in the subway and then
decide to temporarily leave by the manual gate but touch again you'll
"reenter". (I found this out to my cost when the manual gate validator
had been broken for several days. I touched in the subway on my way out
but then was told to touch again on the manual gate - because it had
been repaired - and ended up with an unresolved journey)

(Dont know what will happen if you touch in the subway and then leave by
the automatic barrier - presumably in that case it's intelligent enough
to realize that Exit-Exit is just a single exit, it's just
"Exit?Entry-Exit?Entry" where it gets confused.)

It should treat a touch on a standalone validator and then another one
on the gate as an exit, yes - this is how it works elsewhere (the
point being that the gates are definitively unidirectional - you're
either exiting the system or entering the system). Again, if you touch-
in on the gates then do so again on a standalone validator then it
should just treat them both as entries to the system.

N.B. The validator next to the manual gate (and possibly those next to
the car park) might be configured differently to the other standalone
validators - the validator at the manual gate providing a definitive
'hard' exit or entry to the system, whilst the other validators may
well be in 'interchange mode' and so just provide 'soft' entries and
exits, so you can touch on them as many times as possible with no ill-
effect. Err... that said, if that was the case then touching-out on
the validator in the subway then again on the reader next to the
manual gate shouldn't have caused a problem- not according to my logic
at least. Hmm.
I've no idea how it is configured, and I'd assumed that two touches, on
in the subway followed by one on the manual gate would be an exit. You
cannot touch multiple times on the manual gate and have it register an
entry then an exit or vice-versa because I tried to immediately touch
out again but I couldn't (I suspect I could have touched on one of the
barriered gates)

Here's my Journey history (of course things might well have changed now)

09/04/08 19:57 Watford Junction Entry - £3.00 £20.40
19:56 Watford Junction Exit £2.00 £23.40
19:27 Euston NR Entry - £5.00 £21.40

The exit plus entry didn't even count as a continuation of my journey as
it charged me another three pounds. (I did actually reclaim this and I
got it credited back but usually I cannot be bothered to reclaim when
things go wrong)

I'm surprised it's configured like this because it seems to allow an
easy fraud for people coming in on the St-Albans line. Touch "in" in the
subway and then "out" at the gate and (I think) it's 1.00. Similar will
(presumably) apply for peak hour journeys into Euston where the barriers
are now open.[1] (This is the only time I've ever touched on more than
one validator so I've got no data for what happens in other cases)

Tim.

[1] I suspect I've actually seen this happen because sometimes people
walking the same way as me touched on the validator at the bottom of the
stairs. It could, of course, have been a genuine misunderstanding or
they could have come in on the StAlbans line and then gone up to the
ticket window inside the barrier line before going to the platform.

--
God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t,"
and there was light.

http://www.woodall.me.uk/

On Jun 18, 3:16*pm, Tim Woodall wrote:

On Thu, 18 Jun 2009 06:28:01 -0700 (PDT),
* * Mizter T wrote:

On Jun 18, 1:33*pm, Tim Woodall wrote:

[snip]

There are validators on platforms 1-4 DC line (I think - I almost never
use those platforms)

There are validators on the DC line platforms, yes.

Yes. I'm 99% certain there are some there but I could be imagining
things. I can never think of any circumstance where they would make
sense for me to use therefore, while I'm pretty sure I've seen them I've
not made a mental note "that is where they are"

My comment was a statement as opposed to a question - there are
definitely validators on teh DC line platforms next to the buffer
stops.


Word of warnings - if you touch on a validator in the subway and then
decide to temporarily leave by the manual gate but touch again you'll
"reenter". (I found this out to my cost when the manual gate validator
had been broken for several days. I touched in the subway on my way out
but then was told to touch again on the manual gate - because it had
been repaired - and ended up with an unresolved journey)

(Dont know what will happen if you touch in the subway and then leave by
the automatic barrier - presumably in that case it's intelligent enough
to realize that Exit-Exit is just a single exit, it's just
"Exit?Entry-Exit?Entry" where it gets confused.)

It should treat a touch on a standalone validator and then another one
on the gate as an exit, yes - this is how it works elsewhere (the
point being that the gates are definitively unidirectional - you're
either exiting the system or entering the system). Again, if you touch-
in on the gates then do so again on a standalone validator then it
should just treat them both as entries to the system.

N.B. The validator next to the manual gate (and possibly those next to
the car park) might be configured differently to the other standalone
validators - the validator at the manual gate providing a definitive
'hard' exit or entry to the system, whilst the other validators may
well be in 'interchange mode' and so just provide 'soft' entries and
exits, so you can touch on them as many times as possible with no ill-
effect. Err... that said, if that was the case then touching-out on
the validator in the subway then again on the reader next to the
manual gate shouldn't have caused a problem- not according to my logic
at least. Hmm.

I've no idea how it is configured, and I'd assumed that two touches, on
in the subway followed by one on the manual gate would be an exit. You
cannot touch multiple times on the manual gate and have it register an
entry then an exit or vice-versa because I tried to immediately touch
out again but I couldn't (I suspect I could have touched on one of the
barriered gates)

Worth noting that the gates will only enter you into or exit you from
the system as appropriate depending upon which direction they're set
in (obvious point but worth saying all the same). From what you say,
it's hard to fathom out how it's all configured at Watford Jn.


Here's my Journey history (of course things might well have changed now)

* * *09/04/08 19:57 Watford Junction Entry * * * - £3.00 £20.40
* * * * * * * 19:56 Watford Junction Exit * * * * *£2.00 £23.40
* * * * * * * 19:27 Euston NR * * * *Entry * * * - £5.00 £21.40

The exit plus entry didn't even count as a continuation of my journey as
it charged me another three pounds. (I did actually reclaim this and I
got it credited back but usually I cannot be bothered to reclaim when
things go wrong)

Why only £3 though? Surely it should be £4 for the 'entry charge' (or
£5 if that's the 'entry charge' at WJ)... hmm, I'm a bit puzzled.
Unless... unless the 'entry charge' system doesn't apply at WJ, reason
being because you might end up at a platform at Euston where there's
no Oyster reader.

This is exactly how things were configured at Finsbury Park, where
trains into KX could end up at any platform and until very recently
there were no standalone Oyster readers that passengers could make use
of to finish their journey - thus if you touched in at Finsbury Park
and didn't touch-out you'd be charged the zones 1&2 fare of £2.20/peak
or £1.60/off-peak (and I don't thin it wreck the capping either) - I
presume that now the Oyster readers at KX have gone live this
arrangement no longer applies.


I'm surprised it's configured like this because it seems to allow an
easy fraud for people coming in on the St-Albans line. Touch "in" in the
subway and then "out" at the gate and (I think) it's 1.00. Similar will
(presumably) apply for peak hour journeys into Euston where the barriers
are now open.[1] (This is the only time I've ever touched on more than
one validator so I've got no data for what happens in other cases)

Hmm, interesting. The way it normally appears to work at gated
stations is that if you enter the station and then exit it again
(without having travelled) you're charged the minimum fare from that
station. However I would have thought that the system at stations such
as WJ would be designed with such a fraud as that which you speculate
on in mind (and it's worth noting that your comments are just
speculation).

On Thu, 18 Jun 2009 08:09:45 -0700 (PDT),
Mizter T wrote:

Here's my Journey history (of course things might well have changed now)

* * *09/04/08 19:57 Watford Junction Entry * * * - £3.00 £20.40
* * * * * * * 19:56 Watford Junction Exit * * * * *£2.00 £23.40
* * * * * * * 19:27 Euston NR * * * *Entry * * * - £5.00 £21.40

The exit plus entry didn't even count as a continuation of my journey as
it charged me another three pounds. (I did actually reclaim this and I
got it credited back but usually I cannot be bothered to reclaim when
things go wrong)

Why only £3 though? Surely it should be £4 for the 'entry charge' (or
£5 if that's the 'entry charge' at WJ)... hmm, I'm a bit puzzled.
Unless... unless the 'entry charge' system doesn't apply at WJ, reason
being because you might end up at a platform at Euston where there's
no Oyster reader.

At that time of night then the maximum fare when entering at WJ was 3GBP
which would take you to Euston. IIRC the maximum possible fare was 3.50.

I'm surprised it's configured like this because it seems to allow an
easy fraud for people coming in on the St-Albans line. Touch "in" in the
subway and then "out" at the gate and (I think) it's 1.00. Similar will
(presumably) apply for peak hour journeys into Euston where the barriers
are now open.[1] (This is the only time I've ever touched on more than
one validator so I've got no data for what happens in other cases)

Hmm, interesting. The way it normally appears to work at gated
stations is that if you enter the station and then exit it again
(without having travelled) you're charged the minimum fare from that
station. However I would have thought that the system at stations such
as WJ would be designed with such a fraud as that which you speculate
on in mind (and it's worth noting that your comments are just
speculation).

Indeed, purely speculation. But I think the whole in/out is complicated
by the fact that the StAlbans line is non oyster (I think) but arrives
into Watford Junction on the hot[1] side of the barrier. So the subway
validators have to be able to handle in (St Albans to London) and out
(changing from DC to head North)

[1] I know there's a proper term for this but it escapes me.

And as my minor bit of excitement tonight. After a little too much to
drink my train arrived at Watford Junction. I was standing by the door
waiting for the "ping". Ping happened, I pushed the button ... nothing.
Pushed again ... nothing. Looked down, no lights. Looked across the
train - there's the button lit up. Goodness, I'm more drunk than I
thought. Cross the train, push the button, doors open onto a Virgin
train. I'm not so drunk that I'm going to try and get off like that so I
cross back and hope that the doors will open before the train departs.
"Ping". Open the other door, so now I've got both doors open. Get out.
"Beep, beep, beep" the wrong doors close and then the other doors close
and the train departs. I did remember hearing once of a blind person who
was injured when he got out of a train on the wrong side when it came
into a very unusual platform at his normal station but that's the first
time I've ever seen this happen in a modern train.

Tim.

--
God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t,"
and there was light.

http://www.woodall.me.uk/

On Thu, 18 Jun 2009 23:21:44 +0000 (UTC), Tim Woodall
wrote:

"Beep, beep, beep" the wrong doors close and then the other doors close
and the train departs. I did remember hearing once of a blind person who
was injured when he got out of a train on the wrong side when it came
into a very unusual platform at his normal station but that's the first
time I've ever seen this happen in a modern train.

On LM?

Very surprising, given that there are guards (who would go to the
correct side of the train to do the release), and given that the
platforms are on the same side all the way from H&W to Bletchley
inclusive...

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

On Sat, 20 Jun 2009 21:44:33 GMT,
Neil Williams wrote:
On Thu, 18 Jun 2009 23:21:44 +0000 (UTC), Tim Woodall
wrote:

"Beep, beep, beep" the wrong doors close and then the other doors close
and the train departs. I did remember hearing once of a blind person who
was injured when he got out of a train on the wrong side when it came
into a very unusual platform at his normal station but that's the first
time I've ever seen this happen in a modern train.

On LM?

Yes.

Very surprising, given that there are guards (who would go to the
correct side of the train to do the release), and given that the
platforms are on the same side all the way from H&W to Bletchley
inclusive...

It was the 22:54 departure from Euston.

At that time of night the trains sometimes come in on the "wrong"
platform. I'm sure there is, or used to be, a train that terminates at
WJ that comes in on platform 9.

Tim.

--
God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t,"
and there was light.

http://www.woodall.me.uk/

On Jun 20, 11:25*pm, Tim Woodall wrote:
On Sat, 20 Jun 2009 21:44:33 GMT,
* * Neil Williams wrote: On Thu, 18 Jun 2009 23:21:44 +0000 (UTC), Tim Woodall
wrote:

"Beep, beep, beep" the wrong doors close and then the other doors close
and the train departs. I did remember hearing once of a blind person who
was injured when he got out of a train on the wrong side when it came
into a very unusual platform at his normal station but that's the first
time I've ever seen this happen in a modern train.

On LM?

Yes.

Very surprising, given that there are guards (who would go to the
correct side of the train to do the release), and given that the
platforms are on the same side all the way from H&W to Bletchley
inclusive...

It was the 22:54 departure from Euston.

At that time of night the trains sometimes come in on the "wrong"
platform. I'm sure there is, or used to be, a train that terminates at
WJ that comes in on platform 9.


Yes, Watford Junction platform 9 is reversibly signalled and is used
occasionally by trains heading north. The normal Up platform at Tring
(platform 5) is also on the 'wrong' side since remodelling, the other
side of the island (platform 4) is generally used for the terminators.

On Sun, 21 Jun 2009 13:22:02 -0700 (PDT), Andy

Yes, Watford Junction platform 9 is reversibly signalled and is used
occasionally by trains heading north.

Thinking about it, I have experienced this *once* - and because I
didn't realise the above was the case, I was expecting an announcement
saying we'd be terminating short.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.