On Wed, 24 Jun 2009 10:55:22 -0700 (PDT), Paul Scott
wrote:

Noticed on TfL weekend travel a hint that a trial run of the Circle to
Hammersmith 'Teacup' service is happening this weekend. Can anyone
confirm this is the case? There are no 'service changes' displayed for
the Circle, they're just saying for Edgware Rd station:

"Saturday 27 and Sunday 28 June, there is no through Circle line
service. Passengers travelling between Bayswater and Baker Street in
either direction will need to change trains at Edgware Road"

Not the whole story methinks...

Paul

For those of us not famiiar with this concept could you clarify what
'teacup service' means. I assume it is not a buffet car on each
train. Does it refer to the shape or the route on a map???

On Jun 25, 9:10*am, Scott wrote:
For those of us not famiiar with this concept could you clarify what
'teacup service' means. *I assume it is not a buffet car on each
train. *Does it refer to the shape or the route on a map???

Yes. From Barry Salter's post:

Circle:
-=-=-=-

Hammersmith - Edgware Road - Circle Outer Rail - Edgware Road : Every
10
minutes
Edgware Road - Circle Inner Rail - Edgware Road - Hammersmith : Every
10
minutes


Thus the "Circle" line doesn't do a round and round and round service,
but becomes a there-and-back route, albeit with a big loop.

PhilD

--

In article
,
(PhilD) wrote:

On Jun 25, 9:10*am, Scott wrote:
For those of us not famiiar with this concept could you clarify what
'teacup service' means. *I assume it is not a buffet car on each
train. *Does it refer to the shape or the route on a map???

Yes. From Barry Salter's post:

Circle:
-=-=-=-

Hammersmith - Edgware Road - Circle Outer Rail - Edgware Road :
Every 10 minutes
Edgware Road - Circle Inner Rail - Edgware Road - Hammersmith :
Every 10 minutes


Thus the "Circle" line doesn't do a round and round and round service,
but becomes a there-and-back route, albeit with a big loop.

With the gap in just the wrong place if you want to get through Edgware
Road! :-((

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On 25 June, 09:41, wrote:
With the gap in just the wrong place if you want to get through Edgware
Road! :-((

--
Colin Rosenstiel- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Which leads me on to a major (as yet unresolved by TfL) problem, which
unfortunately could only be tested in the peaks......

The fact is that the Paddington Eastbound Circle Line platform will
become practically redundant - useful only to those wishing to go to
Edgware Road! Hence all those commuters wanting to go further East
will attempt to use Padd H&C line platform. The (over)crowding in the
peaks currently is tantamount to dangerous - add all those using the
Padd Circle Line Eastbound platform and it'll be come so overcrowded
that it'll be dangerous.

TfL have realised this and have asked FGW to give up some of another
Padd platform to provide another entrance / exit - and they are in
discussions. But as it stands, I suspect the HSE will put the kibosh
on the idea unless a workable solution can be found. But I still can't
see the increased service on the H&C being able to carry the number of
Padd commuters wanting to use it after this change.

On Jun 25, 2:15*pm, Chris wrote:

On 25 June, 09:41, wrote:

With the gap in just the wrong place if you want to get through Edgware
Road! :-((

Which leads me on to a major (as yet unresolved by TfL) problem, which
unfortunately could only be tested in the peaks......

The fact is that the Paddington Eastbound Circle Line platform will
become practically redundant - useful only to those wishing to go to
Edgware Road! Hence all those commuters wanting to go further East
will attempt to use Padd H&C line platform. The (over)crowding in the
peaks currently is tantamount to dangerous - add all those using the
Padd Circle Line Eastbound platform and it'll be come so overcrowded
that it'll be dangerous.

TfL have realised this and have asked FGW to give up some of another
Padd platform to provide another entrance / exit - and they are in
discussions. But as it stands, I suspect the HSE will put the kibosh
on the idea unless a workable solution can be found. But I still can't
see the increased service on the H&C being able to carry the number of
Padd commuters wanting to use it after this change.


Yes, I certainly agree that this is one of the biggest issues with the
whole Teacup line plan - the crowding of the H&C line iplatforms. The
H&C line platforms at Paddington isn't really somewhere I've ended up
at much during the midst of the peak, so I can't attest to the
crowding of the island platform itself, however I've certainly seen
the congestion on the sole staircase that leads from the island
platform to the overbridge (especially if two trains going in opposite
directions arrive more or less at the same time but I think it's still
fairly apparent with just one train). There are people struggling up
the staircase with bags, and others at the top trying to weave their
way down to the platforms against the crowd surging their way up.
After getting off an H&C train recently I stayed at the back of the
queue and watched just to see how long it took for the platform and
staircase to clear - and I asked the member of staff at the base of
the stairs whether it's always as busy, to which they responded very
much in the affirmative.

I don't quite understand how FGW giving up a platform would help
matters... unless they were to surrender platform 14 to LU, which
could then become the eastbound Circle/Teacup platform. That would of
course involve some fairly significant works to realign the LU running
lines, and I'm pretty sure FGW could afford to give up a platform at
Paddington anyway could they?

Once Crossrail comes, then there will be more room for manoeuvre at
Paddington as many of the suburban services will transfer to Crossrail
and hence won't need high-level platforms. Plus Crossrail would of
course take some of the pressure off LU at Paddington anyway, as pax
stayed on their Crossrail train to reach further into central London
or across into the City and beyond. So maybe the Teacup line plan is
rather before its time, and would be better suited to a post-Crossrail
London?

In article
,
(Mizter T) wrote:

On Jun 25, 2:15*pm, Chris wrote:

On 25 June, 09:41, wrote:

With the gap in just the wrong place if you want to get through
Edgware Road! :-((

Which leads me on to a major (as yet unresolved by TfL) problem,
which unfortunately could only be tested in the peaks......

The fact is that the Paddington Eastbound Circle Line platform will
become practically redundant - useful only to those wishing to go to
Edgware Road! Hence all those commuters wanting to go further East
will attempt to use Padd H&C line platform. The (over)crowding in the
peaks currently is tantamount to dangerous - add all those using the
Padd Circle Line Eastbound platform and it'll be come so overcrowded
that it'll be dangerous.

TfL have realised this and have asked FGW to give up some of another
Padd platform to provide another entrance / exit - and they are in
discussions. But as it stands, I suspect the HSE will put the kibosh
on the idea unless a workable solution can be found. But I still can't
see the increased service on the H&C being able to carry the number of
Padd commuters wanting to use it after this change.

Yes, I certainly agree that this is one of the biggest issues with the
whole Teacup line plan - the crowding of the H&C line iplatforms. The
H&C line platforms at Paddington isn't really somewhere I've ended up
at much during the midst of the peak, so I can't attest to the
crowding of the island platform itself, however I've certainly seen
the congestion on the sole staircase that leads from the island
platform to the overbridge (especially if two trains going in opposite
directions arrive more or less at the same time but I think it's still
fairly apparent with just one train). There are people struggling up
the staircase with bags, and others at the top trying to weave their
way down to the platforms against the crowd surging their way up.
After getting off an H&C train recently I stayed at the back of the
queue and watched just to see how long it took for the platform and
staircase to clear - and I asked the member of staff at the base of
the stairs whether it's always as busy, to which they responded very
much in the affirmative.

I don't quite understand how FGW giving up a platform would help
matters... unless they were to surrender platform 14 to LU, which
could then become the eastbound Circle/Teacup platform. That would of
course involve some fairly significant works to realign the LU running
lines, and I'm pretty sure FGW could afford to give up a platform at
Paddington anyway could they?

I read the request as for platform space rather than an actual platform. I
guess they need room for another staircase and maybe for widening the LU
island.

Once Crossrail comes, then there will be more room for manoeuvre at
Paddington as many of the suburban services will transfer to Crossrail
and hence won't need high-level platforms. Plus Crossrail would of
course take some of the pressure off LU at Paddington anyway, as pax
stayed on their Crossrail train to reach further into central London
or across into the City and beyond. So maybe the Teacup line plan is
rather before its time, and would be better suited to a post-Crossrail
London?

With the growth expected by then, will Crossrail do more than cope with
that growth?

Well, well, well, it's a bit late in the day to realise all this, isn't it?

However, I thought the teacup doubled the H&C frequency between Edgware
Road and Hammersmith or have I missed some thing? How much will that help
with the platform capacity issue?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On Jun 25, 4:16*pm, wrote:

In article
,
(Mizter T) wrote:

On Jun 25, 2:15*pm, Chris wrote:

[snip]

Which leads me on to a major (as yet unresolved by TfL) problem,
which unfortunately could only be tested in the peaks......

The fact is that the Paddington Eastbound Circle Line platform will
become practically redundant - useful only to those wishing to go to
Edgware Road! Hence all those commuters wanting to go further East
will attempt to use Padd H&C line platform. The (over)crowding in the
peaks currently is tantamount to dangerous - add all those using the
Padd Circle Line Eastbound platform and it'll be come so overcrowded
that it'll be dangerous.

TfL have realised this and have asked FGW to give up some of another
Padd platform to provide another entrance / exit - and they are in
discussions. But as it stands, I suspect the HSE will put the kibosh
on the idea unless a workable solution can be found. But I still can't
see the increased service on the H&C being able to carry the number of
Padd commuters wanting to use it after this change.

Yes, I certainly agree that this is one of the biggest issues with the
whole Teacup line plan - the crowding of the H&C line platforms. The
H&C line platforms at Paddington isn't really somewhere I've ended up
at much during the midst of the peak, so I can't attest to the
crowding of the island platform itself, however I've certainly seen
the congestion on the sole staircase that leads from the island
platform to the overbridge (especially if two trains going in opposite
directions arrive more or less at the same time but I think it's still
fairly apparent with just one train). There are people struggling up
the staircase with bags, and others at the top trying to weave their
way down to the platforms against the crowd surging their way up.
After getting off an H&C train recently I stayed at the back of the
queue and watched just to see how long it took for the platform and
staircase to clear - and I asked the member of staff at the base of
the stairs whether it's always as busy, to which they responded very
much in the affirmative.

I don't quite understand how FGW giving up a platform would help
matters... unless they were to surrender platform 14 to LU, which
could then become the eastbound Circle/Teacup platform. That would of
course involve some fairly significant works to realign the LU running
lines, and I'm pretty sure FGW could afford to give up a platform at
Paddington anyway could they?

I read the request as for platform space rather than an actual platform. I
guess they need room for another staircase and maybe for widening the LU
island.

OK. Not quite sure how it'd work.


Once Crossrail comes, then there will be more room for manoeuvre at
Paddington as many of the suburban services will transfer to Crossrail
and hence won't need high-level platforms. Plus Crossrail would of
course take some of the pressure off LU at Paddington anyway, as pax
stayed on their Crossrail train to reach further into central London
or across into the City and beyond. So maybe the Teacup line plan is
rather before its time, and would be better suited to a post-Crossrail
London?

With the growth expected by then, will Crossrail do more than cope with
that growth?

Erm, I think it's a bit more complicated than just looking at it like
that. Travel patterns will change with Crossrail, placing less of a
demand on Paddington as an interchange location.


Well, well, well, it's a bit late in the day to realise all this, isn't it?

Er, its not like LU have just realised this. We've discussed this
issue several times beforehand on utl. The LU planners will of course
be aware of the knock-on effects of the Teacup line plan, including
the effects on Paddington - I assume they don't think it's a show-
stopper. I'd (obviously) be interested to hear of the inside track on
this.


However, I thought the teacup doubled the H&C frequency between Edgware
Road and Hammersmith or have I missed some thing? How much will that help
with the platform capacity issue?

Yes, frequency would be doubled, which would presumably help matters.

On Thu, 25 Jun 2009 01:31:10 -0700 (PDT), PhilD
wrote:

On Jun 25, 9:10*am, Scott wrote:
For those of us not famiiar with this concept could you clarify what
'teacup service' means. *I assume it is not a buffet car on each
train. *Does it refer to the shape or the route on a map???

Yes. From Barry Salter's post:

Circle:
-=-=-=-

Hammersmith - Edgware Road - Circle Outer Rail - Edgware Road : Every
10
minutes
Edgware Road - Circle Inner Rail - Edgware Road - Hammersmith : Every
10
minutes


Thus the "Circle" line doesn't do a round and round and round service,
but becomes a there-and-back route, albeit with a big loop.

PhilD

Thanks, I thought it might be something like that. But is this a
permanent change or just an arrangement during engineering works? If
the Circle Line is no longer to be a circle it would need to be
renamed causing massive confusion and departing from about a century
of history.

On 25 June, 10:06, Scott wrote:
On Thu, 25 Jun 2009 01:31:10 -0700 (PDT), PhilD





wrote:
On Jun 25, 9:10*am, Scott wrote:
For those of us not famiiar with this concept could you clarify what
'teacup service' means. *I assume it is not a buffet car on each
train. *Does it refer to the shape or the route on a map???

Yes. *From Barry Salter's post:

Circle:
-=-=-=-

Hammersmith - Edgware Road - Circle Outer Rail - Edgware Road : Every
10
minutes
Edgware Road - Circle Inner Rail - Edgware Road - Hammersmith : Every
10
minutes

Thus the "Circle" line doesn't do a round and round and round service,
but becomes a there-and-back route, albeit with a big loop.

PhilD

Thanks, I thought it might be something like that. *But is this a
permanent change or just an arrangement during engineering works? *If
the Circle Line is no longer to be a circle it would need to be
renamed causing massive confusion and departing from about a century
of history.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Will be permanent, but seems to be a trial this time.

On Thu, 25 Jun 2009 02:20:51 -0700 (PDT), MIG
wrote:

On 25 June, 10:06, Scott wrote:
On Thu, 25 Jun 2009 01:31:10 -0700 (PDT), PhilD





wrote:
On Jun 25, 9:10*am, Scott wrote:
For those of us not famiiar with this concept could you clarify what
'teacup service' means. *I assume it is not a buffet car on each
train. *Does it refer to the shape or the route on a map???

Yes. *From Barry Salter's post:

Circle:
-=-=-=-

Hammersmith - Edgware Road - Circle Outer Rail - Edgware Road : Every
10
minutes
Edgware Road - Circle Inner Rail - Edgware Road - Hammersmith : Every
10
minutes

Thus the "Circle" line doesn't do a round and round and round service,
but becomes a there-and-back route, albeit with a big loop.

PhilD

Thanks, I thought it might be something like that. *But is this a
permanent change or just an arrangement during engineering works? *If
the Circle Line is no longer to be a circle it would need to be
renamed causing massive confusion and departing from about a century
of history.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Will be permanent, but seems to be a trial this time.

Thanks. I take it Boris will organise a competition to choose a new
name then.