[x-posted to uk.transport.london - originally posted on uk.railway]

On Jun 26, 9:46*pm, MIG wrote:

On 26 June, 21:24, Paul Harley wrote:

During a recent discussion on uk.r regarding validity of Oyster cards
on National Rail services during the tube strike, there was mention
that HEx would not be accepting Oyster.

The following notice was displayed in the ticket hall at Kings Cross
Underground yesterday:

"Going to Heathrow Airport?
Weekend of 27/28 June

Use the Heathrow Express from Paddington or Heathrow Connect from
Ealing Broadway. *Underground tickets and Oyster cards valid for zones
1-6 inclusive will be accepted on the above dates only. *This is the
quickest route."

So if anyone feels like giving the service a "bash" at an affordable
price, this is the weekend to do it!

The concession is because the Piccadilly Line is suspended between
Hammersmith and Northfields and between Hammersmith and Ealing Common.
Rail replacement bus services operate.

By "Oyster cards valid for zones 1-6 inclusive" do they only mean
travelcards though?

No - any Oyster card will be accepted, all that actually happens is
that the HEx conductor requires sight of one. The wording is
undoubtedly ambiguous, but I guess this is so as to not give the game
away - which is that this is a free ride on HEx to anyone with an
Oyster card!

This has been a source of confusion in the past. Originally when Tube
passengers were allowed to use HEx and Heathrow Connect, the publicity
stated that they needed a "London Underground Travelcard valid for
zones 1-6" which caused some confusion with people wondering whether a
National Rail-issued Travelcard would be acceptable (it was - the
wording was presumably there in an attempt to help befuddled
tourists). One point of interest was that a z1-6 Travelcard was
required even if you were intending to use Heathrow Connect from
Ealing Broadway (zone 3) to Heathrow (zone 6).

I assume that whilst this arrangement was running, anyone who had the
temerity to present an Oyster card and say it was loaded with a zones
1-6 Travelcard (weekly, monthly or longer) would have been allowed to
travel - unless the HEx conductors were issued with handheld Oyster
readers so as to be able to check this, but I didn't hear of anything
like that happening.

Obviously the possibility of doing this left a hole open in the
arrangements, and anyway given the uptake of Oyster PAYG amongst both
Londoners and visitors the idea of having to obtain a paper Day
Travelcard just so as to take advantage of the HEx 'replacement'
seemed increasingly archaic - so in more recent times, the requirement
to hold a z1-6 Day Travelcard has been dropped - all they want to do
is see your Oyster card, no touching-in or out either (not on HEx at
least).

I discovered this a while back (a couple of years ago I think) when
HEx was similarly standing in for the Piccadilly line - I wanted to
incorporate a trip on HEx into my days travels round London, so
dutifully purchased a z1-6 Day Travelcard thinking that was what was
still required. But once on HEx I saw untold people merely presenting
their Oyster cards - the conductor just wanted sight of them but
didn't scan them, not least because they didn't have the handheld
scanner. So on arrival at Heathrow I asked one of the many blue-
jacketed London Underground 'helpers' who were milling around the HEx
station what the story was - yes, you can use your Oyster card ni
problem, no need to touch-in or out or anything.

I went to the LU station at Heathrow to pick up a leaflet and I think
it was similarly ambiguously worded as the above text. Went back to
the HEx station, spoke to a different blue-jacketed LU 'helper' who
said the same thing, got on HEx back to Heathrow and presented my
Oyster card which was briskly waved away by the conductor, felt sorry
for the folks paying through the nose opposite me for full-price HEx
tickets, and at Paddington again asked another blue-jacketed LU
'helper' who again sung from exactly the same hymn sheet as the other
two I'd spoken to.

So there you go - if you've got an Oyster card, it's a freebie! (For
the sake of clarity there are no gates at either the Paddington or
Heathrow ends of HEx.)

~ ~ ~

Some slightly more esoteric discussion follows... opt-out if you're
not interested in the byzantine machinations of how Heathrow Connect
will handle this!

Things with Heathrow Connect must be a little bit more complicated now
though - Oyster PAYG has been valid for travel on FGW and HC between
all London stations *apart from Heathrow* since September '08, and the
Paddington suburban platforms that HC uses are now fully gated too. So
there's the potential conundrum of unresolved journeys, where a
passenger only touches-in at one of the HC-served stations (i.e. any
station from Paddington all the way to Hayes & Harlington) but then
cannot touch-out on arrival at Heathrow (or v.v.), because there's no
Oyster readers at the HEx/HC Heathrow stations.

This could perhaps be partially dealt with by turning off the 'entry
charge' system at these stations and instead configuring the system to
merely charge the appropriate fare to Heathrow - the presumption being
that any passenger who doesn't touch-in or out has come from/ is
heading to Heathrow. (Also the function whereby unresolved journeys
were not counted towards the cap could be disabled too.) This wouldn't
however entirely deal with the situation, as passengers transferring
from the Underground at Ealing Broadway - and they may have entered
the Tube system anywhere. Unless they touch on one of the 'interchange
validators' at Ealing Broadway then their journey would remain
unresolved once they arrive at Heathrow on HC.

The one possibility that I haven't explored is that there are possibly
now Oyster readers at the HEx/HC stations at Heathrow - I am led to
believe there is a plan for Oyster PAYG to be enabled on Heathrow
Connect (though *not* Heathrow Express). I don't know where that plan
is... but I guess it's remotely possible (albeit highly unlikely) that
Oyster readers have been installed in preparation for this at the HEx/
HC Heathrow stations for future use and has been brought into play for
this and similar upcoming weekends. But I haven't come across any
mention of Oyster readers at the HEx/HC Heathrow stations, not even
unused ones sheathed in neoprene or whatever.

Regardless, as and when Oyster PAYG 'goes live' on Heathrow Connect on
a full-time basis (as opposed to merely when the Piccadilly line is
out of action) then it'll be interesting to see how they attempt to
communicate to passengers about who should and shouldn't touch on the
Oyster readers at the HEx/HC Heathrow stations - HC passengers will
need to, HEx passengers meanwhile will need to avoid doing so! But
that's a future issue, not one for this weekend!

Mizter T wrote:
[x-posted to uk.transport.london - originally posted on uk.railway]

On Jun 26, 9:46 pm, MIG wrote:

On 26 June, 21:24, Paul Harley wrote:

During a recent discussion on uk.r regarding validity of Oyster cards
on National Rail services during the tube strike, there was mention
that HEx would not be accepting Oyster.
The following notice was displayed in the ticket hall at Kings Cross
Underground yesterday:
"Going to Heathrow Airport?
Weekend of 27/28 June
Use the Heathrow Express from Paddington or Heathrow Connect from
Ealing Broadway. Underground tickets and Oyster cards valid for zones
1-6 inclusive will be accepted on the above dates only. This is the
quickest route."
So if anyone feels like giving the service a "bash" at an affordable
price, this is the weekend to do it!
The concession is because the Piccadilly Line is suspended between
Hammersmith and Northfields and between Hammersmith and Ealing Common.
Rail replacement bus services operate.
By "Oyster cards valid for zones 1-6 inclusive" do they only mean
travelcards though?

No - any Oyster card will be accepted, all that actually happens is
that the HEx conductor requires sight of one. The wording is
undoubtedly ambiguous, but I guess this is so as to not give the game
away - which is that this is a free ride on HEx to anyone with an
Oyster card!

Here is the inevitable question - does "Oyster Card" include, for this
purpose, a Freedom Pass? AS a matter of interest, the tfl website
advises that "If you are travelling between central London and Heathrow
Airport, for Terminals 1 2 3 and 5, please use Heathrow Express to/from
Paddington and for Terminal 4, please use Heathrow Connect to/from
Paddington or Ealing Broadway. These services will accept valid
Underground tickets covering all zones between 1 and 6." So another
question is, does a Freedom Pass equate to a "valid Underground ticket"?

--
John Ray

On Jun 27, 1:34*am, John Ray
wrote:

Mizter T wrote:

On Jun 26, 9:46 pm, MIG wrote:

On 26 June, 21:24, Paul Harley wrote:

During a recent discussion on uk.r regarding validity of Oyster cards
on National Rail services during the tube strike, there was mention
that HEx would not be accepting Oyster.
The following notice was displayed in the ticket hall at Kings Cross
Underground yesterday:
"Going to Heathrow Airport?
Weekend of 27/28 June
Use the Heathrow Express from Paddington or Heathrow Connect from
Ealing Broadway. *Underground tickets and Oyster cards valid for zones
1-6 inclusive will be accepted on the above dates only. *This is the
quickest route."
So if anyone feels like giving the service a "bash" at an affordable
price, this is the weekend to do it!
The concession is because the Piccadilly Line is suspended between
Hammersmith and Northfields and between Hammersmith and Ealing Common..
Rail replacement bus services operate.

By "Oyster cards valid for zones 1-6 inclusive" do they only mean
travelcards though?

No - any Oyster card will be accepted, all that actually happens is
that the HEx conductor requires sight of one. The wording is
undoubtedly ambiguous, but I guess this is so as to not give the game
away - which is that this is a free ride on HEx to anyone with an
Oyster card!

Here is the inevitable question - does "Oyster Card" include, for this
purpose, a Freedom Pass? *AS a matter of interest, the tfl website
advises that "If you are travelling between central London and Heathrow
Airport, for Terminals 1 2 3 and 5, please use Heathrow Express to/from
Paddington and for Terminal 4, please use Heathrow Connect to/from
Paddington or Ealing Broadway. These services will accept valid
Underground tickets covering all zones between 1 and 6." So another
question is, does a Freedom Pass equate to a "valid Underground ticket"?

I did think about the Freedom Pass just after I'd posted all that. My
unofficial and non-authoritative answer would be yes, a Freedom Pass
surely must count as such - it would be rather nonsensical if it
wasn't valid. If in doubt give it a bash - last time the HEx platforms
at both Paddington and Heathrow were crawling with the blue-jacketed
LU 'helpers' that are got in in to provide assistance to pax with the
special travel arrangements during engineering works (e.g. they pop up
all over the place when there are replacement buses running on other
lines), so one could ask them for confirmation it's ok first (perhaps
worth at least pretending you've got some reason for going to Heathrow
though!).

On Jun 27, 2:11*am, Mizter T wrote:
On Jun 27, 1:34*am, John Ray
wrote:





Mizter T wrote:

On Jun 26, 9:46 pm, MIG wrote:

On 26 June, 21:24, Paul Harley wrote:

During a recent discussion on uk.r regarding validity of Oyster cards
on National Rail services during the tube strike, there was mention
that HEx would not be accepting Oyster.
The following notice was displayed in the ticket hall at Kings Cross
Underground yesterday:
"Going to Heathrow Airport?
Weekend of 27/28 June
Use the Heathrow Express from Paddington or Heathrow Connect from
Ealing Broadway. *Underground tickets and Oyster cards valid for zones
1-6 inclusive will be accepted on the above dates only. *This is the
quickest route."
So if anyone feels like giving the service a "bash" at an affordable
price, this is the weekend to do it!
The concession is because the Piccadilly Line is suspended between
Hammersmith and Northfields and between Hammersmith and Ealing Common.
Rail replacement bus services operate.

By "Oyster cards valid for zones 1-6 inclusive" do they only mean
travelcards though?

No - any Oyster card will be accepted, all that actually happens is
that the HEx conductor requires sight of one. The wording is
undoubtedly ambiguous, but I guess this is so as to not give the game
away - which is that this is a free ride on HEx to anyone with an
Oyster card!

Here is the inevitable question - does "Oyster Card" include, for this
purpose, a Freedom Pass? *AS a matter of interest, the tfl website
advises that "If you are travelling between central London and Heathrow
Airport, for Terminals 1 2 3 and 5, please use Heathrow Express to/from
Paddington and for Terminal 4, please use Heathrow Connect to/from
Paddington or Ealing Broadway. These services will accept valid
Underground tickets covering all zones between 1 and 6." So another
question is, does a Freedom Pass equate to a "valid Underground ticket"?

I did think about the Freedom Pass just after I'd posted all that. My
unofficial and non-authoritative answer would be yes, a Freedom Pass
surely must count as such - it would be rather nonsensical if it
wasn't valid. If in doubt give it a bash - last time the HEx platforms
at both Paddington and Heathrow were crawling with the blue-jacketed
LU 'helpers' that are got in in to provide assistance to pax with the
special travel arrangements during engineering works (e.g. they pop up
all over the place when there are replacement buses running on other
lines), so one could ask them for confirmation it's ok first (perhaps
worth at least pretending you've got some reason for going to Heathrow
though!).- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

However I bet that hapless tourist pax arriving at LHR will still
purchase a full rip-off fare to Paddington simply 'cos they will be
directed to the HEX / Connect platforms, and also they wont be aware
of the cheaper Travelcard alternative from the Underground ticket
offices,

Likewise at Paddington, pax for Heathrow wont necessarily be aware of
the cheaper tickets, and will purchase the expensive HEX tickets -
usually from a machine - 'cos no-one will actually stop them.

As for cross-company billing it always amazes me that BAA's Connect
especially doesn't seem to tally the no. of pax. travelling on its
services. I mean from Hayes & Harlington it is possible to catch FGW
or Connect to Paddington. Yet neither company seems to account for the
passegers using its services. Mind you before computerisation and e-
tickets airlines.used to cross-bill each other using only a 2%
sampling of tickets collected. I know - that used to be my project.
But what samples do Connect and FGW use?

CJB.

In article ,
(John Ray) wrote:

Here is the inevitable question - does "Oyster Card" include, for
this purpose, a Freedom Pass? AS a matter of interest, the tfl
website advises that "If you are travelling between central London
and Heathrow Airport, for Terminals 1 2 3 and 5, please use
Heathrow Express to/from Paddington and for Terminal 4, please use
Heathrow Connect to/from Paddington or Ealing Broadway. These
services will accept valid Underground tickets covering all zones
between 1 and 6." So another question is, does a Freedom Pass
equate to a "valid Underground ticket"?

I would hope so.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On Jun 27, 2:38*am, CJB wrote:

On Jun 27, 2:11*am, Mizter T wrote:

On Jun 27, 1:34*am, John Ray
wrote:

[snip]

Here is the inevitable question - does "Oyster Card" include, for this
purpose, a Freedom Pass? *AS a matter of interest, the tfl website
advises that "If you are travelling between central London and Heathrow
Airport, for Terminals 1 2 3 and 5, please use Heathrow Express to/from
Paddington and for Terminal 4, please use Heathrow Connect to/from
Paddington or Ealing Broadway. These services will accept valid
Underground tickets covering all zones between 1 and 6." So another
question is, does a Freedom Pass equate to a "valid Underground ticket"?

I did think about the Freedom Pass just after I'd posted all that. My
unofficial and non-authoritative answer would be yes, a Freedom Pass
surely must count as such - it would be rather nonsensical if it
wasn't valid. If in doubt give it a bash - last time the HEx platforms
at both Paddington and Heathrow were crawling with the blue-jacketed
LU 'helpers' that are got in in to provide assistance to pax with the
special travel arrangements during engineering works (e.g. they pop up
all over the place when there are replacement buses running on other
lines), so one could ask them for confirmation it's ok first (perhaps
worth at least pretending you've got some reason for going to Heathrow
though!).

However I bet that hapless tourist pax arriving at LHR will still
purchase a full rip-off fare to Paddington simply 'cos they will be
directed to the HEX / Connect platforms, and also they wont be aware
of the cheaper Travelcard alternative from the Underground ticket
offices,

Ah, this is one of your favourite subjects is it not, CJB!

FWIW, LU 'helpers' will be present at all the HEx/HC Heathrow
stations, as well as outside the closed Piccadilly line station, and
will be able to advise pax of what ticket to buy.


Likewise at Paddington, pax for Heathrow wont necessarily be aware of
the cheaper tickets, and will purchase the expensive HEX tickets -
usually from a machine - 'cos no-one will actually stop them.

Again, there will be LU 'helpers' at Paddington. On a previous
occasion this happened I saw pax emerging from the Underground at
Paddington being given advice on where to go. There will also be
numerous LU 'helpers' on the HEx platform.


As for cross-company billing it always amazes me that BAA's Connect
especially doesn't seem to tally the no. of pax. travelling on its
services. I mean from Hayes & Harlington it is possible to catch FGW
or Connect to Paddington. Yet neither company seems to account for the
passegers using its services. Mind you before computerisation and e-
tickets airlines.used to cross-bill each other using only a 2%
sampling of tickets collected. I know - that used to be my project.
But what samples do Connect and FGW use?

Eh? The above is something of a non-sequiter to the topic of this
thread. But anyway, how do you know with such apparent certainty that
FGW and HC aren't monitoring passenger numbers on their services?

"CJB" wrote

As for cross-company billing it always amazes me that BAA's Connect
especially doesn't seem to tally the no. of pax. travelling on its
services. I mean from Hayes & Harlington it is possible to catch FGW
or Connect to Paddington. Yet neither company seems to account for the
passegers using its services. Mind you before computerisation and e-
tickets airlines.used to cross-bill each other using only a 2%
sampling of tickets collected. I know - that used to be my project.
But what samples do Connect and FGW use?

Presumably sorted out through Rail Settlement Plan and Orcats, just as
no-one is bothered whether a particular ticket is used on VT, NT, TP, AW,
XC, or EM between Manchester Piccadilly and Stockport.

Peter

On 27 June, 02:38, CJB wrote:
But what samples do Connect and FGW use?

Heathrow Connect does not exist. It is not a company. *All* trains
between Hayes and Harlington and Paddington are run by First Great
Western, while all trains between Hayes and Heathrow are run by BAA.
The Heathrow Connect trains and staff are supplied by BAA and rented
to FGW for the trip from Hayes to Paddingtpn and back. Therefore It's
likely all fare revenue for journeys not involving Heathrow goes to
FGW.

Heathrow Connect is just a brand for this oddball arrangement.

U

wrote:
In article ,
(John Ray) wrote:

Here is the inevitable question - does "Oyster Card" include, for
this purpose, a Freedom Pass? AS a matter of interest, the tfl
website advises that "If you are travelling between central London
and Heathrow Airport, for Terminals 1 2 3 and 5, please use
Heathrow Express to/from Paddington and for Terminal 4, please use
Heathrow Connect to/from Paddington or Ealing Broadway. These
services will accept valid Underground tickets covering all zones
between 1 and 6." So another question is, does a Freedom Pass
equate to a "valid Underground ticket"?

I would hope so.

So would I, but if they had wanted to say "a ticket valid on the
Undersground" they could have done so.

--
John Ray