Hello,

I am thinking of staying in Watford for a couple of days to do some
sightseeing in London. So each morning/evening I will travel once
to/from London zone 1. During the day I will probably travel a lot
within zone 1/2.

After looking at the TfL site I've come up with the following plan:

1. Get an Oyster PAYG card
2. Each morning touch in at Watford Junction
3. Take the train to Willesden Junction and get off there
4. Touch out at Willesden Junction and go through the exit

This should cost me £1.10 during off-peak times.

5. Go back inside the station, touch in, travel to somewhere in zone 1,
touch out
6. Spend the day travelling extensively within zone 1/2 while
sightseeing (touching in/out at every ride)

This should cost me £5.10 during off-peak times.

7. In the evening travel back to Watford Junction via Willesden Junction
like I did in the morning

This should cost me £1.10 during off-peak times.

Will this work? What alternative do you suggest if my plan won't work?
Thanks.

Ulrich

On Sat, 11 Jul 2009 07:51:43 -0500,
Ulrich Neumann wrote:
Hello,

I am thinking of staying in Watford for a couple of days to do some
sightseeing in London. So each morning/evening I will travel once
to/from London zone 1. During the day I will probably travel a lot
within zone 1/2.

After looking at the TfL site I've come up with the following plan:

1. Get an Oyster PAYG card
2. Each morning touch in at Watford Junction
3. Take the train to Willesden Junction and get off there
4. Touch out at Willesden Junction and go through the exit

This should cost me £1.10 during off-peak times.

5. Go back inside the station, touch in, travel to somewhere in zone 1,
touch out
6. Spend the day travelling extensively within zone 1/2 while
sightseeing (touching in/out at every ride)

This should cost me £5.10 during off-peak times.

7. In the evening travel back to Watford Junction via Willesden Junction
like I did in the morning

This should cost me £1.10 during off-peak times.

Will this work? What alternative do you suggest if my plan won't work?
Thanks.

I think it will work. However, I'd advise using two cards because
otherwise your touch out and touch in might be considered a continuation
of your journey unless you stay out for a (unknown?) length of time.

Presumably time isn't an issue but cost is? I'd guess it's going to add
something like 30 mins to your journey each way by not taking the fast
train to Euston and save you £2.40 each way.

Tim.

--
God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t,"
and there was light.

http://www.woodall.me.uk/

On Jul 11, 1:51*pm, Ulrich Neumann wrote:
Hello,

I am thinking of staying in Watford for a couple of days to do some
sightseeing in London. So each morning/evening I will travel once
to/from London zone 1. During the day I will probably travel a lot
within zone 1/2.

After looking at the TfL site I've come up with the following plan:

1. Get an Oyster PAYG card
2. Each morning touch in at Watford Junction
3. Take the train to Willesden Junction and get off there
4. Touch out at Willesden Junction and go through the exit

This should cost me £1.10 during off-peak times.

5. Go back inside the station, touch in, travel to somewhere in zone 1,
touch out
6. Spend the day travelling extensively within zone 1/2 while
sightseeing (touching in/out at every ride)

This should cost me £5.10 during off-peak times.

7. In the evening travel back to Watford Junction via Willesden Junction
like I did in the morning

This should cost me £1.10 during off-peak times.

Will this work? What alternative do you suggest if my plan won't work?
Thanks.


That's clever lateral thinking, I'll certainly give you that! Just to
clarify for those who might not have followed this, Ulrich's concept
is to combine...
* 2x £1.10 Watford Jn to Willesden Jn off-peak fares (the peak fare
being £3.50), with
* with a zones 1&2 PAYG off-peak cap of £5.10.

Bringing it to a grand total of £7.30.

It's clever as Willesden Jn is the first station he'd reach that's in
zone 2 (it's actually a zone 2/3 'border' station, but the effect is
the same), and also the last station for which the off-peak fare from
Watford Jn would be £1.10 - at the next station along, Kensal Green,
the fare from Watford Jn rises to £2 off-peak (£4 peak).

Would it work using a single Oyster card? I'd say yes it would, so
long as one did exit through a gate at Willesden Jn and then re-enter
through a gate (gates are good as they're unidirectional - i.e. they
explicitly tell the system whether the passenger is exiting or
entering the system).

But I can't guarantee that! There is the possibility that the system
might consider that Ulrich was continuing his original journey - i.e.
it might re-open the original journey from Watford Jn and continue
that. However I don't see why it should though - by exiting and re-
entering at Willesden, the system should close the first journey and
then open a brand new one (this has certainly been my experience when
I've exited and then re-entered the *same* station).

One important thing to note is that the £1.10 off-peak fare for the
return journey from Willesden Jn to Watford Jn is not available
between 16:00 to 19:00 Monday to Friday - during these times the £3.50
peak fare applies (though on the Euston to Watford line it only
applies in the northbound direction in the evening peak) - so Ulrich
would need to ensure he touched-in at Willesden Jn for his return
journey back to Watford Jn after 19:00.

I have another idea for Ulrich too. What (I think) he's trying to do
is to avoid the £13 off-peak PAYG cap for travel in "Zones 1-9 plus
Watford Junction", as shown on page 15 of the "Guide to fares and
tickets (including Zones 7-9 plus Watford Jn)", which is available
here (PDF):
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloa...d-junction.pdf

As an alternative, might I suggest that he begins and ends his journey
at Watford High Street station instead, which is in zone 8 - if he
were to do this then he could benefit from the £8.50 zones 1-9 PAYG
cap, as shown on page 9 of the above guide. He would also then be able
to travel south from Watford High St to Harrow & Wealdstone on the
stopping London Overground (LO) service, before transferring there to
the half-hourly fast London Midland (LM) service to Euston (which
doesn't stop anywhere else!). If he were to do this, he wouldn't have
to limit himself to returning after 19:00 either. (Though there's a
lot to see in London, so I imagine he might!)

Doing it this way works out at £1.20 more expensive than the way
Ulrich came up with, but provides for a faster journey from Watford to
London.

~ ~ ~

There's another way I just thought of - it's a variation on Ulrich's
original idea. This would be to...
* Catch any train (slow LO service, or fast LM or Southern service)
from Watford Jn to Harrow & Wealdstone (H&W), then exit through the
gates - this journey would cost £1.10 off-peak (or £2.50 peak).
* Then re-enter the station through the gates, get a fast train to
Euston (or indeed a slow LO train or the Bakerloo line if he wanted
to), explore all day, then come back to H&W, and exit through the
gates. He would then be subject to a zones 1-6 off-peak PAYG cap at
£7.
* Travel north to Watford Jn on any train - this journey would again
cost £1.10 (though the peak fare of £2.50 would apply between 16:00
and 19:00 Monday to Friday).

That leads to a total of £9.20 - so it's a bit more expensive again.

~ ~ ~

Why haven't I considered breaking the journey at Bushey, where there
is a half-hourly fast LM service to Euston, you may ask? Well, because
AFAIAA, there are no gates at Bushey - and I suspect the Oyster
validators there are set up in 'interchange mode', which means that
they wouldn't definitively close a journey - therefore Ulrich would be
charged for a through Watford Jn to Euston journey (and capped
accordingly) even if he did stop off at Bushey station.

There is one Bushey based possibility though. Ulrich could catch the
142 bus from Watford to Bushey - this is a TfL bus and so accepts
Oyster PAYG, and starts from the bus station outside Watford Jn before
working its way through Watford to Bushey, the ultimate destination
being Brent Cross Shopping Centre. Any journey made on this or any
other London bus would simply contribute towards *any* PAYG cap - as
London buses don't do zones - in which case Ulrich would simply end up
paying the £7 PAYG off-peak cap for zones 1-9. Important note - Ulrich
would still need to start his bus journey *after* 09:30 in order to
ensure the bus journey formed part of the off-peak cap.

The 142 bus runs "every 9-13 minutes" during the day, less frequently
in the evening, and takes 10 minutes to get from Watford Jn to Bushey.
To see the simplified timetable, go to the TfL Journey Planner, click
on "Timetables" in the right hand column, then under "Bus timetable -
route number" put in 142 and click on "Get timetable", then select the
direction of travel then the stop you need (Bushey station comes under
"Bushey Rail Station" in the list).

Voila - Watford Jn to Euston plus unlimited travel after 09:30 for £7
instead of £13.

~ ~ ~

One last thing - the devious amongst you will be wondering what
prevents one starting from Watford High Street and going north to
Watford Jn, before reversing direction and travelling south on a fast
LM train to Euston. The answer is... I don't know! I'm sure LM don't
want you to do that, and I suspect it might fall under the category of
'irregular travel', but whether an LM ticket inspector would pick up
on this I don't know. I don't recall any specific instructions at
Watford Jn as to what to do in this situation. I suppose that if you
were to touch on one of the 'interchange validators' *within* Watford
Jn station then that might ensure you paid the full fare - that said,
the way the system works at the moment doesn't provide for "route
based validation" - however that concept is coming in September. So
*at the moment* (for the next month or two) even if you touched on an
'interchange validator' at Watford Jn, you might only be charged for a
Watford High Street to Euston journey, and no ticket inspector could
reasonably have any complaint with what you did. That's something I
might have to try whilst I've still got the chance in the coming
weeks!

Enough Oyster for now! I think I might just have Oysteritus...
(That's a bit too close to a Borisism for my liking... what with his
desire for "Oysterisation"...)

On Jul 12, 9:50*pm, Mizter T wrote:

Damn and blast. I'm afraid I've just realised I got a something
slightly wrong with regards to Bushey scenario - specifically the cost
of the relevant cap, which is z1-9 off-peak and costs £8.50, not £7.

All these Oysters are obviously going to my head. I'll add the
correction in below...

~ ~ ~

Why haven't I considered breaking the journey at Bushey, where there
is a half-hourly fast LM service to Euston, you may ask? Well, because
AFAIAA, there are no gates at Bushey - and I suspect the Oyster
validators there are set up in 'interchange mode', which means that
they wouldn't definitively close a journey - therefore Ulrich would be
charged for a through Watford Jn to Euston journey (and capped
accordingly) even if he did stop off at Bushey station.

There is one Bushey based possibility though. Ulrich could catch the
142 bus from Watford to Bushey - this is a TfL bus and so accepts
Oyster PAYG, and starts from the bus station outside Watford Jn before
working its way through Watford to Bushey, the ultimate destination
being Brent Cross Shopping Centre. Any journey made on this or any
other London bus would simply contribute towards *any* PAYG cap - as
London buses don't do zones - in which case Ulrich would simply end up
paying the £7 PAYG off-peak cap for zones 1-9. Important note - Ulrich
would still need to start his bus journey *after* 09:30 in order to
ensure the bus journey formed part of the off-peak cap.

***CORRECTION***
The off-peak PAYG cap for zones 1-9 is in fact £8.50, *not* £7 as
incorrectly stated above. Sorry for the confusion.


The 142 bus runs "every 9-13 minutes" during the day, less frequently
in the evening, and takes 10 minutes to get from Watford Jn to Bushey.
To see the simplified timetable, go to the TfL Journey Planner, click
on "Timetables" in the right hand column, then under "Bus timetable -
route number" put in 142 and click on "Get timetable", then select the
direction of travel then the stop you need (Bushey station comes under
"Bushey Rail Station" in the list).

Voila - Watford Jn to Euston plus unlimited travel after 09:30 for £7
instead of £13.

Well, actually £8.50 - the same as the cost from Watford High Street.

Ulrich could even take the 142 bus from Watford Jn to Watford High
Street station and enter the rail system there (which again would
qualify him for the £8.50 - but there are no fast LM trains from
Watford High Street, only slow LO trains - he could of course change
at Bushey from LO onto LM).

It's all so simple really isn't it!

On Jul 11, 2:18*pm, Tim Woodall wrote:

On Sat, 11 Jul 2009 07:51:43 -0500,
* * Ulrich Neumann wrote:

Hello,

I am thinking of staying in Watford for a couple of days to do some
sightseeing in London. So each morning/evening I will travel once
to/from London zone 1. During the day I will probably travel a lot
within zone 1/2.

After looking at the TfL site I've come up with the following plan:

1. Get an Oyster PAYG card
2. Each morning touch in at Watford Junction
3. Take the train to Willesden Junction and get off there
4. Touch out at Willesden Junction and go through the exit

This should cost me £1.10 during off-peak times.

5. Go back inside the station, touch in, travel to somewhere in zone 1,
touch out
6. Spend the day travelling extensively within zone 1/2 while
sightseeing (touching in/out at every ride)

This should cost me £5.10 during off-peak times.

7. In the evening travel back to Watford Junction via Willesden Junction
like I did in the morning

This should cost me £1.10 during off-peak times.

Will this work? What alternative do you suggest if my plan won't work?
Thanks.

I think it will work. However, I'd advise using two cards because
otherwise your touch out and touch in might be considered a continuation
of your journey unless you stay out for a (unknown?) length of time.

I think it would work, because by exiting through the gates and re-
entering, it would provide a definitive closure to the first journey
and then start a second journey. I muse on this in my somewhat epic
separate reply to Ulrich.

At Bushey I posit that things would be different - there are (AFAIAA)
no gates at Bushey, only standalone Oyster validators. These are
provided in the subway that links all the platforms, and is also used
(if not categorised as) a shortcut for non-rail users. I therefore
reckon these are set up in 'interchange mode', to provide for people
transferring between slow LO services and fast LM services.

Therefore, to take advantage of 'breaking the journey' at Bushey (i.e.
to get charged for a Watford Jn to Bushey journey and a separate
Bushey to Euston journey) he would need two separate Oyster cards -
one for the Watford Jn to Bushey stretch - charged at £1.10 at any
time - and another for his journey into and around London - which
would be capped at £8.50 off-peak. The total cost would therefore be
£10.70, which isn't a great saving on the £13 cap one would be subject
to from Watford Jn (i.e. the zones 1-9 plus Watford Jn cap),


Presumably time isn't an issue but cost is? I'd guess it's going to add
something like 30 mins to your journey each way by not taking the fast
train to Euston and save you £2.40 each way.

I'm probably being stupid (very likely in fact) but I can't see where
your £2.40 figure comes from.

FWIW, in my reply to Ulrich I make a few other suggestions. Watford to
Bushey by route 142 bus (a TfL bus, hence PAYG accepted), then on from
Bushey to London actually seems like quite a good route to me - even
if I did get the price of the relevant cap wrong first time round!
That route would cost £8.50 off-peak - that's the level of the zones
1-9 off-peak PAYG cap - a full £4.50 saving over the cap that applies
from Watford Jn.

The other possibility that hasn't been mentioned is simply that of
starting at Watford station on the Metropolitan line. It's not too far
to walk to from either Watford town centre or Watford Junction - and
as it's in zone 9, it would of course mean that Ulrich only pays for
the z1-9 cap at £8.50. (And the A-stock trains in use on the Met line
are of historic interest, and won't be around for that much longer.)

On Sun, 12 Jul 2009 14:20:37 -0700 (PDT),
Mizter T wrote:

On Jul 11, 2:18*pm, Tim Woodall wrote:


Presumably time isn't an issue but cost is? I'd guess it's going to add
something like 30 mins to your journey each way by not taking the fast
train to Euston and save you £2.40 each way.

I'm probably being stupid (very likely in fact) but I can't see where
your £2.40 figure comes from.

The OP was suggesting 1.10 each way plus a Z1&2 cap.

Doing WJ-Euston and then a Z1+2 cap will add 2.40 each way, WJ-Euston
being 3.50 off peak.

FWIW, in my reply to Ulrich I make a few other suggestions. Watford to
snip

I'll go and find that post. As you post via google you don't get past my
killfile unless you're responding to one of my posts.

Tim.


--
God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t,"
and there was light.

http://www.woodall.me.uk/

On Sun, 12 Jul 2009 13:50:34 -0700 (PDT),
Mizter T wrote:

One last thing - the devious amongst you will be wondering what
prevents one starting from Watford High Street and going north to
Watford Jn, before reversing direction and travelling south on a fast
LM train to Euston. The answer is... I don't know! I'm sure LM don't
want you to do that, and I suspect it might fall under the category of
'irregular travel', but whether an LM ticket inspector would pick up
on this I don't know. I don't recall any specific instructions at
Watford Jn as to what to do in this situation. I suppose that if you
were to touch on one of the 'interchange validators' *within* Watford
Jn station then that might ensure you paid the full fare - that said,

I'd strongly recommend that you don't touch on the interchange
validators, at least not the ones in the subway. They are setup for
Entry and Exit, therefore, IIRC your journey will be closed at WJ and
then you'll be travelling ticketless.

(Of course, AFAIAA there are no ticket inspectors on LM trains that have
machines that can actually read an oyster card. I've only ever shown
them mine. One day, however, I'm sure this will change.)

Tim.


--
God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t,"
and there was light.

http://www.woodall.me.uk/

On Jul 13, 12:52*am, Tim Woodall wrote:

On Sun, 12 Jul 2009 13:50:34 -0700 (PDT),
* * Mizter T wrote:

One last thing - the devious amongst you will be wondering what
prevents one starting from Watford High Street and going north to
Watford Jn, before reversing direction and travelling south on a fast
LM train to Euston. The answer is... I don't know! I'm sure LM don't
want you to do that, and I suspect it might fall under the category of
'irregular travel', but whether an LM ticket inspector would pick up
on this I don't know. I don't recall any specific instructions at
Watford Jn as to what to do in this situation. I suppose that if you
were to touch on one of the 'interchange validators' *within* Watford
Jn station then that might ensure you paid the full fare - that said,

I'd strongly recommend that you don't touch on the interchange
validators, at least not the ones in the subway. They are setup for
Entry and Exit, therefore, IIRC your journey will be closed at WJ and
then you'll be travelling ticketless.

Crumbs, yes, I remember, the whole issue came up in a thread quite
recently - in fact I think you started it off after an incident you'd
had. Thanks for the heads up. (I'm guessing that the Oyster validators
at the ends of the DC Line platforms behave in the same way... but
maybe not.)

I wonder if they're actually purposefully set up like this so to
prevent people from benefiting from starting at Watford High Street?
And if so under what basis, with regards to the underlying principles
of the Oyster system. Hmm. Given the lack of any specific instructions
at Watford Jn that cover this situation (at least as far as I am
aware) , I think one would have a very good case against any penalty
fare that might be levied. I also think one would have a very good
argument for getting a refund from Oyster customer services with
regards to any subsequent charges levied.

I suppose that actually, this problem might be solved when "route
based validation" (as explained in recent threads by Paul C) comes
into effect in September. After that happens, the subway validators
could be configured as 'interchange validators', and therefore any pax
transferring from LO (DC Line) onto fast LM services could touch on
one of these validators and the system would joyously ensure that the
correct, more expensive fare (via Watford Jn) was deducted! (All the
related discussion on that issue has thus far solely focussed on being
charged the cheaper fare for going the cheaper route!)

Just as a quick comparison of this apparent situation at Watford Jn
with elsewhere - at Stratford, one can merrily go round and touch each
and every one of the standalone Oyster validators - which are all set
up in 'interchange mode' - with no ill effect whatsoever, and
regardless of whether one is starting, finishing or merely
interchanging there!


(Of course, AFAIAA there are no ticket inspectors on LM trains that have
machines that can actually read an oyster card. I've only ever shown
them mine. One day, however, I'm sure this will change.)

I read somewhere that a lot of the ones given to TOCs by TfL have been
lost. I've no idea if that's true.

On Sat, Jul 11, 2009 at 07:51:43AM -0500, Ulrich Neumann wrote:

I am thinking of staying in Watford for a couple of days to do some
sightseeing in London. So each morning/evening I will travel once
to/from London zone 1. During the day I will probably travel a lot
within zone 1/2.

...

[snip complicated dance]

The best ticket would be a normal Travelcard, it'll save a great deal of
faffing around for minimal extra cost.

--
David Cantrell | Minister for Arbitrary Justice

Planckton: n, the smallest possible living thing

On Jul 13, 10:36*am, David Cantrell wrote:

On Sat, Jul 11, 2009 at 07:51:43AM -0500, Ulrich Neumann wrote:
I am thinking of staying in Watford for a couple of days to do some
sightseeing in London. So each morning/evening I will travel once
to/from London zone 1. During the day I will probably travel a lot
within zone 1/2.

...

[snip complicated dance]

The best ticket would be a normal Travelcard, it'll save a great deal of
faffing around for minimal extra cost.

It appears that Ulrich is looking for a cheaper way of doing things.
An off-peak Day Travelcard from Watford Junction costs £13.50. The off-
peak Oyster PAYG cap from Watford Junction (i.e. z1-9 plus WJ) is £13.

His method (if it works using a single Oyster card) brings the cost
down to £7.30. My suggestions cost £8.50 and £9.30.

Specifically, the bus from Watford to Bushey, the LO train from
Watford High Street, or the Met line from Watford Met station options
all come in at £8.50 (z1-9 off peak PAYG cap) - none of these are
*that* complicated, and they all offer a saving of £5 over the cost of
a Day Travelcard from WJ, or £4.50 over the cost of the PAYG cap. OK,
so perhaps that's no big deal, but I reckon it's useful to know about
anyway - with information comes the ability to make an informed
choice, after all.