On Sun, 12 Jul 2009 16:32:23 -0700 (PDT), Mizter T
wrote:


On Jul 12, 11:49*pm, Tom Barry wrote:

Mizter T wrote:

On Jul 12, 10:37 pm, "Chris Read" wrote:

"West Yorkshire Bus" wrote:
With Boris being pro-Routemasters, anti-Bendibuses, I'm surprised
there hasn't been any changes to the heritage Routemaster services in
London since they were introduced

There are insufficient spare vehicles within TfL ownership to allow any
expansion. The spare vehicle coverage is already way higher than on any
other bus route.

He's currently having KPMG draw up a bus review, which one suspects will
be aimed very much at cutting the annual subsidy and/or loosening the
grip TfL has on the private bus operators, neither of which are exactly
conducive to a reintroduction of widespread two crew operation.

I hadn't picked up on the KPMG review until fairly recently when Paul
C provided a head's up on it. It is a bit worrying... I'm hoping that
all they'll recommend doing is tinkering around the edges (because
they have to recommend something), rather than wrecking the whole
thing.

They have to do a review to ensure it's all "value for money". I'm sure
Mr Souter and Mr Lockhead will say it would all be wonderful if they
were allowed to scrap it out themselves and nasty TfL was pushed out the
way. "Think of all those hundreds of millions you'd save by giving it
all to us to run" while ably forgetting how much it would cost when huge
swathes of the network were cut and "Fred Bloggs Buses" won the contract
to wander round the streets of Coulsdon with an ex London ex Birmingham
almost ex scrapheap Dennis Dart!

There is a very real issue here and my guess is that Mr Norris has
convinced someone that it can be done way cheaper than it currently
costs with no impact on service quality or fares. The report - if
published - could end up either as a damp squib or political dynamite.
The issue is whether cuts (or more politely savings) can be achieved
without any political fall out before 2012. Ken got away with cuts and
trims round the edges of the network but generally there were
improvements. That trend has broadly continued to date but I do sense a
change is on the way.

The turnaround of the bus network in London in recent years has been a
real achievement, with ridership on the up and up. I genuinely hope
that Boris & Co realise this, and don't go about ballsing it all up.
Not least because, in recessionville London, bus ridership is holding
steady if not increasing. But more than that - it's a success story
that doesn't need to be ruined.

Well yes but other than saying "new Routemaster" what else has been said
about bus services in London by the present regime? The nearest thing
to a policy statement was hidden in the TfL Business Plan indicating
that funding for continued network expansion would remain. Oh and
Countdown 2 is funded (which is good).

There is simply zero chance of them being cut though, at least now
whilst Boris is in office, given the political capital he has invested
in the whole Routemaster 'thing' - if he did, the furore would be
immense. I suppose that if and when the Borismaster (the Routemaster
inspired Boris Bus) ever appears, then they could be dropped - but the
Borismaster, *if* it ever sees the light of day, isn't going to be
that similar to the old Routemasters.

I agree it would be political suicide for the Heritage routes to fall by
the wayside under Boris. I don't see that happening. They are due for
retender by Nov 2010 so will be out to tender from about Jan 2010. As
they are tendered gross contracts they cannot be extended as QI
contracts can. They are disproportionately expensive and have been
difficult to run reliably although the 15 seems to be doing better these
days.

My prediction has long been that London will have more artics than
Routemasters of any variety come May 2012.

Interesting prediction. Probably accurate too.

FWIW, I think ditching the bendy bus is a stupid decision, but
ultimately if that's the sacrificial lamb that has to be slaughtered
in order for the rest of the network to survive and flourish then
regretfully I say so be it.

Well I think we have interesting times ahead. Within 2 months the Red
Arrows will have shrunk in size but increased in frequency - I wonder
how that will work in practice? And then in November we have the 38
change over. If people were to start pondering the scale of new
vehicles, garage space, road space, turning / termini space etc that a
fully converted bendy network will need you probably start to end up
with some truly frightening statistics. These routes all have
terrifically high PVRs and if you scale them upwards as per the 38 you
start to get to some crazy numbers and real potential reliability issues
around dwell times. I know people argue like hell as to whether bendies
are faster or not at stops than conventional deckers but routes like the
25 will have to be every 2 mins or so and the 73 probably every minute.
The alternative is massive route restructuring on some links to deal
with the demand in other ways. People moaned about the obvious and
hidden costs with bendy buses - I'm not convinced you don't get a repeat
of the same issues with a conversion back to conventional buses.

However, of course things aren't as simple
as that, as Boris has said that current bendy bus contracts will be
left to run all the way to the end (I wonder if things would have
taken a different course if TfL had still been relatively flush with
money?). If he won a second term then they'd presumably all go.

Well there are now very mixed messages blowing around on this point. I
have read in two separate places that Boris has decreed all bendies have
to be gone by the end of 2011. This sounds very much like a politically
driven timescale and is contrary to earlier pronouncements. I don't have
a source as to when the Mayor is alleged to have made this statement. To
counter it there was a BBC news article saying the Mayor had
acknowledged that some bendies *may* still be around in 2015. These
comments started circulating about 4-6 weeks ago.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8105875.stm

A Google search throws up this Time Out interview where "all gone by
2011" is mentioned.

http://www.timeout.com/london/featur...interview.html

I don't know what is going on but if you take the political line it
looks like someone is saying "the bendies must be gone before the
campaign starts" and possibly "you might only have one or two new Buses
for London around so killing the bendies has to happen". The last
sentence is pure mad speculation on my part but someone must be thinking
ahead about manifesto commitment fulfillment.

Though the other factor is of course what the reaction will be to the
withdrawal of bendies on certain routes, and replacement with slower
double deckers. "The people" might speak out (as they were encouraged
to do with regards to the CC Western Extension for example), though
said people are perhaps not those Boris is terribly interested in
listening to.

I think there may be initial issues which can be predicted - delays on
Red Arrows, long boarding times on the 38, lower deck crowding on the
38s, buggy wars. The real issue is whether any of these issues become
associated with the decision to change vehicles and whether the
operators can fix the problems quickly. All of the routes subject to
conversion will suffer some short term issues - it happened when they
went bendy and has happened when routes went from crew to OPO back in
the 80s and 90s. Normal experience is that the initial teething
problems vanish as people get used to the revised way of doing things
and operators get new schedules agreed. We shall see what happens!

--
Paul C

On Mon, 13 Jul 2009 10:09:03 GMT, wrote:

He's currently having KPMG draw up a bus review, which one suspects will
be aimed very much at cutting the annual subsidy and/or loosening the
grip TfL has on the private bus operators, neither of which are exactly
conducive to a reintroduction of widespread two crew operation.
One man operation should never have been introduced in the first place
all those years ago now

Why?

Other than for security reasons late at night, there is no need for
two staff on a London bus. Oyster has done away with any such need.

Outside London, bus companies still insist on having people pay the
driver for tickets on complicated fares structures. I've never
understood why they're too conservative to do otherwise, with a few
notable exceptions - the time you'd save would save money by reducing
the number of buses required for a given service.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

"Neil Williams" wrote:

Outside London, bus companies still insist on having people pay the
driver for tickets on complicated fares structures. I've never
understood why they're too conservative to do otherwise, with a few
notable exceptions - the time you'd save would save money by reducing
the number of buses required for a given service.

Madness, isn't it? I was contemplating this very point today, as I used a
few Brighton & Hove services. B&H are rightly regarded as a good operator -
forward-thinking in many ways. But none of the fares seem to be 'round
pounds', and the only flat fare zone is a restricted area in the city
centre - otherwise it's the traditional fare stages. They don't like notes
above £5, and consequently people fish for the right change - in the case of
the lady ahead of me in one queue today, this involved 2 pence pieces.
Factor in three fare changes in 12 months, and the irregular bus user
doesn't know the fare they will be asked to find, and gets flustered.

An Oyster-like pre-pay system would be great, but failing that:

£1 for a short hop (up to three/four stops)
£3 for everything else
50p flat fare for kids/teens

Job done!

Chris

On 13 July, 17:24, "Chris Read" wrote:
"Mizter T" wrote:

(re Heritage RMs)

There is simply zero chance of them being cut though, at least now
whilst Boris is in office, given the political capital he has invested
in the whole Routemaster 'thing' - if he did, the furore would be
immense.

To the average Londoner, the Routemaster has gone. Where would this 'immense
furore' come from?

Chris - whilst one can look at them solely the context of TfL's real
job of moving people from A to B, I think it fair to say that they are
a small but important part of 'brand London' - and whilst they might
be costly to run, the tourist promotion folks would surely argue that
they are worthwhile investment in terms of tourism.

I remember similar doom-mongering about tourism when the mainstream
Routemaster routes were taken off. Who else remembers Matthew 'I'm moving
away' Wharmby's website? Since then, despite the recession, the number of
visitors to London has increased considerably. I accept the Routemaster is
part of 'brand London', but how many intending visitors would boycott London
if the 9H and 15H were taken off? My own guess is a two digit number per
annum, no more. The key determinant of the success of UK tourism is the
exchange rate - boring but true.

The most iconic postcard of London for many decades featured RTs at
Piccadilly Circus in about 1965, and it was still sold as if it was
present day till the early 1990s at least (and still sold now as
historical). It didn't feature any Routemasters. Most punters don't
look beyond "big and red".


Also, the London transport network has more than its fair share of
museum pieces that are nonetheless integral parts of the system - I'm
thinking more in terms of architecture and buildings as opposed to
vehicles. Great lengths are gone to preserve many of these buildings
and stations, and the historical features thereof - under your strict
analysis, doing this is also not necessary but merely a 'nice to
have'. Maybe so, but I think in many cases the extra effort is
worthwhile.

In many cases, it is cheaper to repair older buildings than knock them down
and start again. And some of these buildings will be listed, so you can't do
much to them anyway.

But it comes down to a debate about where you spend a budget which is being
squeezed. Difficult choices will need to be made. I think we (all of us -
but especially the public sector) have forgotten what it's like to have to
make cuts.

(And this all comes from someone who is a bendy bus fan! Which leads
me on to think... will the LT Museum keep a bendy bus? One could
certainly argue they should - but the LTM is part of TfL which is
ultimately answerable to the Mayor, and I dare say he'd veto any such
suggestion given his professed desire to eradicate them. Thus we are
left with the potential for each and every Mayor to airbrush London's
transport history as they so please! Possibly a bit of an OTT comment,
but you see where I'm coming from. I dare say someone will be along
any moment to argue that such airbrushing of history at the LTM is
nothing new...!)

Well there we can agree on something. I too am a bendy bus fan, and I think
taking them off the Red Arrow routes, where they are well-suited, is an
expensive political stunt. Ironically, I think they are disappearing just as
Londoners learn to love them.

The reasons we didn't like the bendies we

i) They were new, and anything new in this country is treated with wariness,
if not hostility. Especially if it's also foreign.
ii) They were blamed for seeing off the beloved Routemaster, although most
bendy routes had not been RM operated latterly.
iii) The Evening Standard told us they were rubbish, and were responsible
for the mass murder of cyclists.

I hate them, but I don't think it makes sense to scrap new vehicles.

I am building up a photo album of bendys parked across pedestrian
crossings. No doubt I will be arrested for terrorism.

On Mon, 13 Jul 2009 21:14:33 +0100, "Chris Read"
wrote:

£1 for a short hop (up to three/four stops)
£3 for everything else

Christ, that's steep. In MK, the fares are (don't know about child):-

gbp1.10 short hop
gbp1.70 most journeys
gbp2.10 (I think) cross-city
gbp3.20 day ticket[1]

Though admittedly Arriva have stated they are deliberately taking a
lower profit to build the market.

[1] Since Arriva came in, it's been usual for the day ticket to be
slightly less than two singles - it used to be slightly more. This
move alone has reduced the number of transactions made with drivers,
particularly nearer the end of the day when things have had chance to
get delayed. A very sensible move.

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

On 13 July, 22:04, (Neil Williams)
wrote:
On Mon, 13 Jul 2009 21:14:33 +0100, "Chris Read"

wrote:
£1 for a short hop (up to three/four stops)
£3 for everything else

Christ, that's steep. *In MK, the fares are (don't know about child):-

gbp1.10 short hop
gbp1.70 most journeys
gbp2.10 (I think) cross-city
gbp3.20 day ticket[1]

Though admittedly Arriva have stated they are deliberately taking a
lower profit to build the market.

[1] Since Arriva came in, it's been usual for the day ticket to be
slightly less than two singles - it used to be slightly more. *This
move alone has reduced the number of transactions made with drivers,
particularly nearer the end of the day when things have had chance to
get delayed. *A very sensible move.

..

And it's often free in MK. I guess the machines don't all work or
something, and the drivers just wave people in. I'd say about one in
six journeys, but not enough data to be statistically valid.

On Mon, 13 Jul 2009 14:29:57 -0700 (PDT), MIG
wrote:

And it's often free in MK. I guess the machines don't all work or
something, and the drivers just wave people in. I'd say about one in
six journeys, but not enough data to be statistically valid.

The machines are rather unreliable, and I suspect they'll be replaced
soon. They've already completely abolished the use of the old-style
contact smartcards (which were slower to process than a cash fare).

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

"Neil Williams" wrote:

Chris Read wrote:

£1 for a short hop (up to three/four stops)
£3 for everything else

Christ, that's steep. In MK, the fares are (don't know about child):-

gbp1.10 short hop
gbp1.70 most journeys
gbp2.10 (I think) cross-city
gbp3.20 day ticket[1]

Those were my suggested 'easy to understand' fares, not the current
position. Nevertheless, a two to three mile single journey on B&H seems to
come to about £2.40, so significantly more expensive than MK. On the other
hand, the B&H network extends to Eastbourne (about 20 miles) and Tunbridge
Wells (about 35 miles), for which £3 would be a bargain. Our network-wide
day rover tickets are presently £3.20 when bought in advance (off bus), and
£5 on bus.

Chris

On Jul 13, 9:56*pm, MIG wrote:

On 13 July, 17:24, "Chris Read" wrote:

[snip]

The reasons we didn't like the bendies we

i) They were new, and anything new in this country is treated with wariness,
if not hostility. Especially if it's also foreign.
ii) They were blamed for seeing off the beloved Routemaster, although most
bendy routes had not been RM operated latterly.
iii) The Evening Standard told us they were rubbish, and were responsible
for the mass murder of cyclists.

I hate them, but I don't think it makes sense to scrap new vehicles.

Actual *hatred*? Actually, no, I can't quite bring myself to lauch
into a discussion about bendies right at the moment! I must say that
whilst I know the whole issue has been discussed to death (on utl at
least), I absented myself from many of the discussions - especially
after the election of Boris - because irrationality was in the air.
That's *not* to say I'm accusing you or anyone else of being
irrational solely for disliking bendies - I'm sure your critique is
well argued and reasoned - but at the time the debate was peppered
with lots of fantasising about how Boris was the savior of the
universe and was going to bring back Routemasters forthwith. The
reality, as we know now (and some of us suspected at the time) is a
little more complex and perhaps ever so lightly more mundane!

Still, one day, when I'm feeling strong enough, perhaps I'll try and
provoke a constructive discussion about bendy buses. That said, I'm
not sure I'd be able to bear it!


I am building up a photo album of bendys parked across pedestrian
crossings. *No doubt I will be arrested for terrorism.

They are actually honeytraps, designed to lure in potential terrorists
- the reason why they 'hum' is actually because they';re humming with
electronic surveillance measures. And Ken was like any good socialist
- a control freak at heart. Voila - the mystery of his volte-face on
ditching Routemasters and bringing in bendies explained! ;-)

On Jul 13, 5:24*pm, "Chris Read" wrote:

Three irrational reasons for disliking the bendy bus. But we are a rational
nation, and now quite like the idea of a bus which swallows huge crowds, has
easy access and a very good turn of speed. You wait for the moaning and
groaning when the Dennis Darts arrive on the 521.

I think you mean brand new dual door 12m Mercedes Citaros on the Red
Arrows - the first of which are apparently at Evobus in Coventry. I
don't expect to see a Dennis Dart anywhere near those routes.

--
Paul C
via Google