With Boris being pro-Routemasters, anti-Bendibuses, I'm surprised
there hasn't been any changes to the heritage Routemaster services in
London since they were introduced

I was in London recently and the services seemed popular and the very
sight of one on the road caused tens of tourists to get out their
cameras.

Personally I think they should extend the 15 so it runs from Tower
Hill to Trafalgar Square and then to Marble Arch.

The 9 is fine, but both these services are east to west routes so I
think if they were to introduce a third service it should be north to
south and one that actually crosses the Thames.

An ideal route for a heritage service in my opinion would be the 453
running from Baker Street to County Hall (or from Marylebone Station
to Elephant & Castle if there would be no space to turn or stand at
those other locations). The high service number is a bit unfortunate
though.

Has anyone any thoughts on this?

"West Yorkshire Bus" wrote:

With Boris being pro-Routemasters, anti-Bendibuses, I'm surprised
there hasn't been any changes to the heritage Routemaster services in
London since they were introduced

I was in London recently and the services seemed popular and the very
sight of one on the road caused tens of tourists to get out their
cameras.

They are expensive to operate, and often very quiet during the winter
period. There is no longer a stock of Routemaster vehicles to expand the
service, even if that were desirable.

In fact, I'm quite surprised these services are still operating at all. If
drastic cuts become necessary at TfL, I would expect the 9H and 15H to be in
the firing line. They are 'nice to haves' which contribute little to the
real job of TfL - moving Londoners efficiently from A to B on a daily basis.

Personally I think they should extend the 15 so it runs from Tower
Hill to Trafalgar Square and then to Marble Arch.

The 9 is fine, but both these services are east to west routes so I
think if they were to introduce a third service it should be north to
south and one that actually crosses the Thames.

On the assumption 'heritage route' resourcing remains static, I would scrap
the 9H (with its random and useless western terminus), and put the vehicles
onto the 15H to extend it beyond Trafalgar Square. Marble Arch would be
nice, but Oxford Circus would be more realistic with a 10 vehicle run out I
suspect. No doubt stand space would be problematic. Such a route would,
however, be of more use to regular commuters/shoppers than the current 15H.

An ideal route for a heritage service in my opinion would be the 453
running from Baker Street to County Hall (or from Marylebone Station
to Elephant & Castle if there would be no space to turn or stand at
those other locations). The high service number is a bit unfortunate
though.

Has anyone any thoughts on this?

A nice idea which won't happen.

Chris

On Jul 12, 10:37 pm, "Chris Read" wrote:

"West Yorkshire Bus" wrote:
With Boris being pro-Routemasters, anti-Bendibuses, I'm surprised
there hasn't been any changes to the heritage Routemaster services in
London since they were introduced
I was in London recently and the services seemed popular and the very
sight of one on the road caused tens of tourists to get out their
cameras.

They are expensive to operate, and often very quiet during the winter
period. There is no longer a stock of Routemaster vehicles to expand the
service, even if that were desirable.

In fact, I'm quite surprised these services are still operating at all. If
drastic cuts become necessary at TfL, I would expect the 9H and 15H to be in
the firing line. They are 'nice to haves' which contribute little to the
real job of TfL - moving Londoners efficiently from A to B on a daily basis.

There is simply zero chance of them being cut though, at least now
whilst Boris is in office, given the political capital he has invested
in the whole Routemaster 'thing' - if he did, the furore would be
immense. I suppose that if and when the Borismaster (the Routemaster
inspired Boris Bus) ever appears, then they could be dropped - but the
Borismaster, *if* it ever sees the light of day, isn't going to be
that similar to the old Routemasters.

Chris - whilst one can look at them solely the context of TfL's real
job of moving people from A to B, I think it fair to say that they are
a small but important part of 'brand London' - and whilst they might
be costly to run, the tourist promotion folks would surely argue that
they are worthwhile investment in terms of tourism.

Also, the London transport network has more than its fair share of
museum pieces that are nonetheless integral parts of the system - I'm
thinking more in terms of architecture and buildings as opposed to
vehicles. Great lengths are gone to preserve many of these buildings
and stations, and the historical features thereof - under your strict
analysis, doing this is also not necessary but merely a 'nice to
have'. Maybe so, but I think in many cases the extra effort is
worthwhile.

(And this all comes from someone who is a bendy bus fan! Which leads
me on to think... will the LT Museum keep a bendy bus? One could
certainly argue they should - but the LTM is part of TfL which is
ultimately answerable to the Mayor, and I dare say he'd veto any such
suggestion given his professed desire to eradicate them. Thus we are
left with the potential for each and every Mayor to airbrush London's
transport history as they so please! Possibly a bit of an OTT comment,
but you see where I'm coming from. I dare say someone will be along
any moment to argue that such airbrushing of history at the LTM is
nothing new...!)

Mizter T wrote in news:a6740c21-b675-4cce-8efb-
:

Chris - whilst one can look at them solely the context of TfL's real
job of moving people from A to B, I think it fair to say that they are
a small but important part of 'brand London' - and whilst they might
be costly to run, the tourist promotion folks would surely argue that
they are worthwhile investment in terms of tourism.

Absolutely.

They're certainly one of the iconic images of London, along with the Clock
Tower, the London Eye, Tower Bridge and so on.

FWIW a Google Image search for "London" includes 7 Clock Towers, 4 London
Eyes, a couple of Gherkins and two Routemasters in the first 20 results.

Mizter T wrote:
On Jul 12, 10:37 pm, "Chris Read" wrote:

"West Yorkshire Bus" wrote:
With Boris being pro-Routemasters, anti-Bendibuses, I'm surprised
there hasn't been any changes to the heritage Routemaster services in
London since they were introduced

That would involve an interest in the detail. He's not that interested
in the detail. He's not that interested in buses, actually - electric
cars and bikes, yes - buses and trains, no.

He's currently having KPMG draw up a bus review, which one suspects will
be aimed very much at cutting the annual subsidy and/or loosening the
grip TfL has on the private bus operators, neither of which are exactly
conducive to a reintroduction of widespread two crew operation.

I was in London recently and the services seemed popular and the very
sight of one on the road caused tens of tourists to get out their
cameras.
They are expensive to operate, and often very quiet during the winter
period. There is no longer a stock of Routemaster vehicles to expand the
service, even if that were desirable.

In fact, I'm quite surprised these services are still operating at all. If
drastic cuts become necessary at TfL, I would expect the 9H and 15H to be in
the firing line. They are 'nice to haves' which contribute little to the
real job of TfL - moving Londoners efficiently from A to B on a daily basis.

There is simply zero chance of them being cut though, at least now
whilst Boris is in office, given the political capital he has invested
in the whole Routemaster 'thing' - if he did, the furore would be
immense. I suppose that if and when the Borismaster (the Routemaster
inspired Boris Bus) ever appears, then they could be dropped - but the
Borismaster, *if* it ever sees the light of day, isn't going to be
that similar to the old Routemasters.


It won't even have an open back, as currently envisaged, more a door
that's left open during the day. This allows them to reduce the crewing
cost, and therefore suggests alarm bells at the differential in running
costs with OPO double deckers, let alone artics.

The 9H and 15H ought to be up for retender a few months before the end
of Boris's first and hopefully last term, with the contract running out
a few months later Be interesting to watch if the tender announcement
comes out on time.

My prediction has long been that London will have more artics than
Routemasters of any variety come May 2012.

Tom

On Jul 12, 11:49*pm, Tom Barry wrote:

Mizter T wrote:

On Jul 12, 10:37 pm, "Chris Read" wrote:

"West Yorkshire Bus" wrote:
With Boris being pro-Routemasters, anti-Bendibuses, I'm surprised
there hasn't been any changes to the heritage Routemaster services in
London since they were introduced

That would involve an interest in the detail. *He's not that interested
in the detail. *He's not that interested in buses, actually - electric
cars and bikes, yes - buses and trains, no.

He's currently having KPMG draw up a bus review, which one suspects will
be aimed very much at cutting the annual subsidy and/or loosening the
grip TfL has on the private bus operators, neither of which are exactly
conducive to a reintroduction of widespread two crew operation.


I hadn't picked up on the KPMG review until fairly recently when Paul
C provided a head's up on it. It is a bit worrying... I'm hoping that
all they'll recommend doing is tinkering around the edges (because
they have to recommend something), rather than wrecking the whole
thing.

I hope that those doing the review, and those making decisions
subsequently, also take note of this March 2006 report from the
Assembly's Transport Committee entitled "Value added? The Transport
Committee’s assessment of whether the bus contracts issued by London
Buses represent value for money."
It's available here as a PDF:
http://www.london.gov.uk/assembly/re...alue-added.pdf

Essentially it answers yes. But what's notable about it in particular
is that it provides a potted history of the attempts over the last
couple of decades or so in organising the service along different
lines (such as net cost contracts), none of which were particularly
successful/ some of which were arguably something of a disaster.

The turnaround of the bus network in London in recent years has been a
real achievement, with ridership on the up and up. I genuinely hope
that Boris & Co realise this, and don't go about ballsing it all up.
Not least because, in recessionville London, bus ridership is holding
steady if not increasing. But more than that - it's a success story
that doesn't need to be ruined.


I was in London recently and the services seemed popular and the very
sight of one on the road caused tens of tourists to get out their
cameras.
They are expensive to operate, and often very quiet during the winter
period. There is no longer a stock of Routemaster vehicles to expand the
service, even if that were desirable.

In fact, I'm quite surprised these services are still operating at all.. If
drastic cuts become necessary at TfL, I would expect the 9H and 15H to be in
the firing line. They are 'nice to haves' which contribute little to the
real job of TfL - moving Londoners efficiently from A to B on a daily basis.

There is simply zero chance of them being cut though, at least now
whilst Boris is in office, given the political capital he has invested
in the whole Routemaster 'thing' - if he did, the furore would be
immense. I suppose that if and when the Borismaster (the Routemaster
inspired Boris Bus) ever appears, then they could be dropped - but the
Borismaster, *if* it ever sees the light of day, isn't going to be
that similar to the old Routemasters.

It won't even have an open back, as currently envisaged, more a door
that's left open during the day. *This allows them to reduce the crewing
cost, and therefore suggests alarm bells at the differential in running
costs with OPO double deckers, let alone artics.

The 9H and 15H ought to be up for retender a few months before the end
of Boris's first and hopefully last term, with the contract running out
a few months later *Be interesting to watch if the tender announcement
comes out on time.

My prediction has long been that London will have more artics than
Routemasters of any variety come May 2012.

Interesting prediction. Probably accurate too.

FWIW, I think ditching the bendy bus is a stupid decision, but
ultimately if that's the sacrificial lamb that has to be slaughtered
in order for the rest of the network to survive and flourish then
regretfully I say so be it. However, of course things aren't as simple
as that, as Boris has said that current bendy bus contracts will be
left to run all the way to the end (I wonder if things would have
taken a different course if TfL had still been relatively flush with
money?). If he won a second term then they'd presumably all go.

Though the other factor is of course what the reaction will be to the
withdrawal of bendies on certain routes, and replacement with slower
double deckers. "The people" might speak out (as they were encouraged
to do with regards to the CC Western Extension for example), though
said people are perhaps not those Boris is terribly interested in
listening to.

In article
,
(Mizter T) wrote:

The turnaround of the bus network in London in recent years has been a
real achievement, with ridership on the up and up. I genuinely hope
that Boris & Co realise this, and don't go about ballsing it all up.
Not least because, in recessionville London, bus ridership is holding
steady if not increasing. But more than that - it's a success story
that doesn't need to be ruined.

What has the London ridership growth cost in terms of public money? I
sometimes compare the London success with the success over the last decade
in growing ridership in the select club of Brighton, Cambridge, Oxford and
York. By comparison with London barely any public money has been spent in
those cities.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

West Yorkshire Bus wrote:

Has anyone any thoughts on this?

One of the treats of London was to ride upstairs at the front over Tower
Bridge. I think all the regular buses over Tower Bridge are now single
decker, which is a shame. I'd like the Routemasters to go over Tower Bridge,
but I can't see that happening.

"Mizter T" wrote:

(re Heritage RMs)

There is simply zero chance of them being cut though, at least now
whilst Boris is in office, given the political capital he has invested
in the whole Routemaster 'thing' - if he did, the furore would be
immense.

To the average Londoner, the Routemaster has gone. Where would this 'immense
furore' come from?

Chris - whilst one can look at them solely the context of TfL's real
job of moving people from A to B, I think it fair to say that they are
a small but important part of 'brand London' - and whilst they might
be costly to run, the tourist promotion folks would surely argue that
they are worthwhile investment in terms of tourism.

I remember similar doom-mongering about tourism when the mainstream
Routemaster routes were taken off. Who else remembers Matthew 'I'm moving
away' Wharmby's website? Since then, despite the recession, the number of
visitors to London has increased considerably. I accept the Routemaster is
part of 'brand London', but how many intending visitors would boycott London
if the 9H and 15H were taken off? My own guess is a two digit number per
annum, no more. The key determinant of the success of UK tourism is the
exchange rate - boring but true.

Also, the London transport network has more than its fair share of
museum pieces that are nonetheless integral parts of the system - I'm
thinking more in terms of architecture and buildings as opposed to
vehicles. Great lengths are gone to preserve many of these buildings
and stations, and the historical features thereof - under your strict
analysis, doing this is also not necessary but merely a 'nice to
have'. Maybe so, but I think in many cases the extra effort is
worthwhile.

In many cases, it is cheaper to repair older buildings than knock them down
and start again. And some of these buildings will be listed, so you can't do
much to them anyway.

But it comes down to a debate about where you spend a budget which is being
squeezed. Difficult choices will need to be made. I think we (all of us -
but especially the public sector) have forgotten what it's like to have to
make cuts.

(And this all comes from someone who is a bendy bus fan! Which leads
me on to think... will the LT Museum keep a bendy bus? One could
certainly argue they should - but the LTM is part of TfL which is
ultimately answerable to the Mayor, and I dare say he'd veto any such
suggestion given his professed desire to eradicate them. Thus we are
left with the potential for each and every Mayor to airbrush London's
transport history as they so please! Possibly a bit of an OTT comment,
but you see where I'm coming from. I dare say someone will be along
any moment to argue that such airbrushing of history at the LTM is
nothing new...!)

Well there we can agree on something. I too am a bendy bus fan, and I think
taking them off the Red Arrow routes, where they are well-suited, is an
expensive political stunt. Ironically, I think they are disappearing just as
Londoners learn to love them.

The reasons we didn't like the bendies we

i) They were new, and anything new in this country is treated with wariness,
if not hostility. Especially if it's also foreign.
ii) They were blamed for seeing off the beloved Routemaster, although most
bendy routes had not been RM operated latterly.
iii) The Evening Standard told us they were rubbish, and were responsible
for the mass murder of cyclists.

Three irrational reasons for disliking the bendy bus. But we are a rational
nation, and now quite like the idea of a bus which swallows huge crowds, has
easy access and a very good turn of speed. You wait for the moaning and
groaning when the Dennis Darts arrive on the 521.

Chris

On 12 July, 22:37, "Chris Read" wrote:
"West Yorkshire Bus" wrote:
With Boris being pro-Routemasters, anti-Bendibuses, I'm surprised
there hasn't been any changes to the heritage Routemaster services in
London since they were introduced
I was in London recently and the services seemed popular and the very
sight of one on the road caused tens of tourists to get out their
cameras.

They are expensive to operate, and often very quiet during the winter
period. There is no longer a stock of Routemaster vehicles to expand the
service, even if that were desirable.

In fact, I'm quite surprised these services are still operating at all. If
drastic cuts become necessary at TfL, I would expect the 9H and 15H to be in
the firing line. They are 'nice to haves' which contribute little to the
real job of TfL - moving Londoners efficiently from A to B on a daily basis.

Personally I think they should extend the 15 so it runs from Tower
Hill to Trafalgar Square and then to Marble Arch.

The 9 is fine, but both these services are east to west routes so I
think if they were to introduce a third service it should be north to
south and one that actually crosses the Thames.

On the assumption 'heritage route' resourcing remains static, I would scrap
the 9H (with its random and useless western terminus), and put the vehicles
onto the 15H to extend it beyond Trafalgar Square. Marble Arch would be
nice, but Oxford Circus would be more realistic with a 10 vehicle run out I
suspect. No doubt stand space would be problematic. Such a route would,
however, be of more use to regular commuters/shoppers than the current 15H.

An ideal route for a heritage service in my opinion would be the 453
running from Baker Street to County Hall (or from Marylebone Station
to Elephant & Castle if there would be no space to turn or stand at
those other locations). The high service number is a bit unfortunate
though.

Has anyone any thoughts on this?

A nice idea which won't happen.

Chris

I'm sure some extra Routemasters could be sourced if they needed to
be, many of the main bus operators seem to have about 10 each in their
fleet and there are probably loads that were bought for preservation
or private hire which hasn't worked out

The low profile routes may not help loadings, hence why it would be
better if they served the likes of Oxford Circus, Parliament Square
etc

I wonder if the advert space on the Routemasters should carry adverts
saying that Travelcards and Oyster cards are valid. Many tourists may
think they are seperate paid service like the open top routes, or
alternatively maybe the Routemaster routes could be sold off to become
part of say the Arriva Original Tour operation

Andrew