I don't know why they couldn't have foreseen it, but when I saw those
four gates being installed at Wandsworth town a week or two ago I knew
that could never be enough. They're been put into use today and it's
just causing so many problems already with queues all the way up the
stairs onto the platforms almost. This is a very busy station with a
narrow corridor that can only take 3 normal + 1 wide gate which is
just nowhere near enough. They could've maybe built something in a
semi-circle at the very end of the corridor which would allow for a
couple of extra gates? Because is just not going to work.

Lucas wrote:
I don't know why they couldn't have foreseen it, but when I saw those
four gates being installed at Wandsworth town a week or two ago I knew
that could never be enough. They're been put into use today and it's
just causing so many problems already with queues all the way up the
stairs onto the platforms almost. This is a very busy station with a
narrow corridor that can only take 3 normal + 1 wide gate which is
just nowhere near enough. They could've maybe built something in a
semi-circle at the very end of the corridor which would allow for a
couple of extra gates? Because is just not going to work.

I've seen several ticket gate installations of late where I can't see
how the guidance notes for the Railway Group Standards have been
followed at all.

http://www.rgsonline.co.uk/Railway_G...%20Iss%201.pdf

How binding are these on the TOCs? Can we report this to anyone?

On 5 Aug, 12:59, Commuter wrote:
Lucas wrote:
I don't know why they couldn't have foreseen it, but when I saw those
four gates being installed at Wandsworth town a week or two ago I knew
that could never be enough. They're been put into use today and it's
just causing so many problems already with queues all the way up the
stairs onto the platforms almost. This is a very busy station with a
narrow corridor that can only take 3 normal + 1 wide gate which is
just nowhere near enough. They could've maybe built something in a
semi-circle at the very end of the corridor which would allow for a
couple of extra gates? Because is just not going to work.

I've seen several ticket gate installations of late where I can't see
how the guidance notes for the Railway Group Standards have been
followed at all.

http://www.rgsonline.co.uk/Railway_G...astructure/Gui...

How binding are these on the TOCs? Can we report this to anyone?

Just reading this now:

Ensure sufficient ATGs are installed at each entrance/exit to ensure
no
person has to wait more than a maximum of five minutes to pass through
the ATGs. This figure has been applied to all ATG schemes installed on
the
national rail network to date, although station operators should aim
to
achieve a waiting time of no more than three minutes.

5 minutes of extra waiting time to get through a gate? Who on earth
thinks that's an acceptable extra burden for every passenger? I would
say 10 or 20 seconds extra, max.

On Wed, Aug 05, 2009 at 04:02:30PM +0100, Paul Corfield wrote:

On LUL we plan to make sure that the gates are not an evacuation route
pinch point and also that there are sufficient gates for the highest
peak 5 minute combined flow rate. This should mean there is very little
queuing at a gateline although I recognise some locations fare better
than others in this respect.

Quite. I can't remember the last time I was seriously delayed *leaving*
a tube station. And yet it happens just about every time I have to go
through barriers at Victoria.

At Thornton Heath, they did what the OP suggested should have been done
at Wandsworth Town - set the gates back where there was more space.
They still cause delays and crowding though when they're in use.
Thankfully, they're just left open nearly every evening.

And I maintain that there should be giant hydraulic spikes shooting up
through the floor whenever a passenger is too ****ing stupid to work the
gate.

--
David Cantrell | Official London Perl Mongers Bad Influence

"IMO, the primary historical significance of Unix is that it marks the
time in computer history where CPUs became so cheap that it was possible
to build an operating system without adult supervision."
-- Russ Holsclaw in a.f.c

David Cantrell writes:

And I maintain that there should be giant hydraulic spikes shooting up
through the floor whenever a passenger is too ****ing stupid to work the
gate.

I'm not sure how that would decrease congestion at the barrier. Steam
catapult?


-dan

In article ,
(David Cantrell) wrote:

On Wed, Aug 05, 2009 at 04:02:30PM +0100, Paul Corfield wrote:

On LUL we plan to make sure that the gates are not an evacuation route
pinch point and also that there are sufficient gates for the highest
peak 5 minute combined flow rate. This should mean there is very
little queuing at a gateline although I recognise some locations fare
better than others in this respect.

Quite. I can't remember the last time I was seriously delayed
*leaving* a tube station. And yet it happens just about every time
I have to go through barriers at Victoria.

How many tube stations have the full trainloads through barriers
experience of London Terminal stations, though?

Not that Wandsworth Town comes anywhere near their either.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In article ,
(Paul Corfield) wrote:

On Thu, 06 Aug 2009 06:14:21 -0500,
wrote:

In article ,
(David Cantrell) wrote:

On Wed, Aug 05, 2009 at 04:02:30PM +0100, Paul Corfield wrote:

On LUL we plan to make sure that the gates are not an evacuation
route pinch point and also that there are sufficient gates for the
highest peak 5 minute combined flow rate. This should mean there
is very little queuing at a gateline although I recognise some
locations fare better than others in this respect.

Quite. I can't remember the last time I was seriously delayed
*leaving* a tube station. And yet it happens just about every time
I have to go through barriers at Victoria.

I think the fact that £700m is to be spent expanding capacity at
Victoria is indicative that the place is seriously below capacity hence
the queuing time.

Oh, much needed for sure, but they still don't get whole trainloads
turning up at once at a small barrier line as on a mainline terminal
platform.

How many tube stations have the full trainloads through barriers
experience of London Terminal stations, though?

Not many but I would nominate Brixton and Stratford JLE given the huge
flows they generate. Nonetheless the longer distances from train to
gateline at Stratford (modern standards in use) and the escalators at
Brixton will cause flows to stretch out or be channeled in a way that
does not happen on NR. Walthamstow Central can get bad at the very
height of the peak and Bank W&C is another example of full trains
(albeit little ones) and very little space to the gateline.

I've never been on a Southbound Victoria Line trains that wasn't a lot
less full after Victoria than before. Or do they fill up again at
Stockwell? Haven;t seen them do so at Vauxhall.

Nonetheless I suspect the 5 minute delay parameter might apply for NR
terminal stations but should not (IMO) apply at all to other locations
where flows are lower and where they may be some distance between train
and gateline.

Not that Wandsworth Town comes anywhere near their either.

Well exactly. I'd still contend that having people queuing on stairs is
not a satisfactory situation.

We agree then.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Paul Corfield wrote

person has to wait more than a maximum of five minutes to pass
through
the ATGs. This figure has been applied to all ATG schemes installed
on
national rail network to date, although station operators should aim
achieve a waiting time of no more than three minutes.

This means queues on stairs or else on platforms which may be
problematic if another train turns up before the previous load have
exited the station. Add in the fact that some NR trains can be

Very few NR stations have that frequent a service, certainly Wandsworth
Town doesn't (six minutes minimum).

What the busiest NR in that sense ?

What is queuing to leave like at Kempton Park ?

Wimbledon has 18 an hour serviced by one platform/ two faces.

--
Mike D

On 6 Aug, 21:53, "Michael R N Dolbear" wrote:
Paul Corfield wrote



person has to wait more than a maximum of five minutes to pass
through
the ATGs. This figure has been applied to all ATG schemes installed
on
national rail network to date, although station operators should aim
achieve a waiting time of no more than three minutes.
This means queues on stairs or else on platforms which may be
problematic if another train turns up before the previous load have
exited the station. Add in the fact that some NR trains can be

Very few NR stations have that frequent a service, certainly Wandsworth
Town doesn't (six minutes minimum).

What the busiest NR in that sense ?

What is queuing to leave like at Kempton Park ?

Wimbledon has 18 an hour serviced by one platform/ two faces.

The worst situations tend to be at ungated stations when they have
grippers/police in.

On one occasion in about 1998/9, I complained by phone about the
dangerous situation created by about twenty grippers at Cannon Street,
before barriers/gates were installed.

I was in the front coach of the second arrival at the same island
platform, and it still took me five minutes to get past the idiot
grippers. I was genuinely scared about what was building up behind me.

"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
...

Quite. I can't remember the last time I was seriously delayed
*leaving* a tube station. And yet it happens just about every time
I have to go through barriers at Victoria.

I think the fact that £700m is to be spent expanding capacity at
Victoria is indicative that the place is seriously below capacity hence
the queuing time.

I thought David was commenting on how long it took to get through the *NR*
barriers at Victoria.

Nonetheless I suspect the 5 minute delay parameter might apply for NR
terminal stations.

The only NR barrier line I use regularly is the one serving platforms 15-19
at Victoria, and this is the only one I've encountered that seems to have
acceptable capacity in the morning peak. It only fails on the rare
occassions that two full trains arrive simultaneously - they usually open
all the gates and shout at people to walk through.

D A Stocks