On Wed, 12 Aug 2009 16:05:51 +0100, Tom Barry
wrote:

So it is in everyone's interests that cars become much more frugal and
emit far less CO2, because people aren't going to give up the freedom
of travelling in their own private, secure and comfortable air
conditioned space.

...until it's too expensive. Actually, quite a lot of people in London
have managed to give it up, haven't they?

Quite a number have never taken it up in the first place. As I
understand it this is only really widespread in London, within the UK
at least.

Guy
--
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk/urc | http://www.nohelmetlaw.org.uk/
"Nullius in Verba" - take no man's word for it.
- attr. Horace, chosen by John Evelyn for the Royal Society

Bruce gurgled happily, sounding much like they
were saying:

Where's this electricity coming from, then?

From a 13A domestic socket or a dedicated three-phase charging pillar.

I was thinking about a bit further back in the wiring than the socket.

The problem is, you weren't thinking at all.

I certainly wasn't thinking about magic electricity trees, with an
infinite supply of totally clean and efficient power generation. Were you?

"Just zis Guy, you know?" wrote in message

On Wed, 12 Aug 2009 15:31:15 +0100, "Recliner"
wrote:

The Leaf has a claimed range of 100 miles, but most electric cars
achieve much less than the claimed range in normal driving. On a 240v
household supply, it will take eight hours to recharge, so for most
people, the maximum miles per day that they could do would be about
80, and maybe less if they want to be sure of getting home (after
all, you can't just pop in for a fill-up when the red light comes
on).

I've only once had a commute longer than that, though. and that was
135 miles round trip from Reading to Gosport, which is quite extreme.

The average UK commute is 8.5 miles or 45 minutes. Either would be
within the capabilities of most plug-in electric cars.

Yes, but with those sort of mileages, the Leaf will cost more to run
than a limo (thanks to the expensive battery lease cost).

On Wed, 12 Aug 2009 16:03:43 +0100, "Recliner"
wrote:
"Bruce" wrote in message

I understand your scepticism, but the Nissan Leaf and its Renault
equivalent (the two companies are closely linked) will be the first
available mass production electric cars. You have to start somewhere,
and this is as good a place as any. Others will follow, but so far,
only Nissan/Renault has addressed the problem of the cost of the
batteries.

But you carefully missed my other point, that cars with petrol and
diesel engines are rapidly becoming more fuel efficient. Over the
last few years, the improvement in engine efficiency has been negated
by a weight increase, for mainly safety reasons. If there hadn't been
a significant improvement in efficiency, the fuel consumption would
have gone up, as with the lardbutt Desiros.

Now, there won't be further increases in weight, so future
improvements in engine efficiency will translate directly into
improvements in fuel economy, and these will be substantial. There
simply isn't the scope for trains to make this magnitude of
performance gains, so the CO2 consumption gap between trains and cars
will be substantially reduced.

That can only be a good thing, because rail could never cope with more
than a tiny proportion of the passenger traffic that currently goes by
road. Rail has 6% of the surface passenger-km, roads 94%. So even if
rail doubled its market share to 12%, the roads would still take 88%.
The chances of rail doubling its market share without massive
development of new lines are near-zero. Just look at the high cost of
Crossrail, and of high speed inter-city lines.

So it is in everyone's interests that cars become much more frugal and
emit far less CO2, because people aren't going to give up the freedom
of travelling in their own private, secure and comfortable air
conditioned space.

Yup, I agree with all that


Noted, thanks. ;-)


, and ic engined cars surely will get
dramatically more efficient in the coming years -- not so much because
of the weight issue, but because of pressure in the US market, which
previously was little concerned about fuel efficiency or the
environment. All manufacturers are now focused on this issue like never
before.


I agree, but the impetus is the forthcoming crackdown from the EU on
average CO2 emissions for each car manufacturer.


I'm just sceptical about the wide-eyed claims made for pure-electric (as
opposed to hybrid) and hydrogen cars, whose proponents conveniently
ignore the higher fixed costs and infrastructure issues.


It's a bit like rail electrification, whose proponents also
conveniently ignore the higher fixed costs and infrastructure issues
.... ;-)

On 12 Aug 2009 15:50:45 GMT, Adrian wrote:
Bruce gurgled happily, sounding much like they
were saying:

Where's this electricity coming from, then?

From a 13A domestic socket or a dedicated three-phase charging pillar.

I was thinking about a bit further back in the wiring than the socket.

The problem is, you weren't thinking at all.

I certainly wasn't thinking about magic electricity trees, with an
infinite supply of totally clean and efficient power generation. Were you?


No, you don't think at all. Full stop.

On 12 Aug 2009 15:35:51 GMT, Adrian wrote:

Bruce gurgled happily, sounding much like they
were saying:

I understand your scepticism, but the Nissan Leaf and its Renault
equivalent (the two companies are closely linked) will be the first
available mass production electric cars.

No, they won't. Not by a long chalk.

Well there aren't *any* at the moment.

shrug Still doesn't mean "first".

All available electric cars, from the £8299 G-Wizz to the £64000 Tesla
Roadster, are low volume, mostly handmade products.

Leaving aside the C1 ev'ie - which is a low-volume modification of a mass
produced car - you seem to have forgotten about the various electric PSA
products of the '90s - Saxos, 106s, Berlingos etc. All "mass-produced" in
reasonable volume (I've not seen any production figures, but I'd suspect
into four figures) alongside the internal combustion versions. La
Rochelle wasn't their only reason for production - they were standard
production models, on UK price lists, especially the Berlingo.


No, they were all low volume hand made adaptations (and pretty crude
ones at that) of petrol or diesel cars or vans. There won't be a
petrol or diesel version of the Leaf; it was designed from the outset
as an electric car.

Perhaps there might be a hybrid derivative in the years to come.

Bruce gurgled happily, sounding much like they
were saying:

Leaving aside the C1 ev'ie - which is a low-volume modification of a
mass produced car - you seem to have forgotten about the various
electric PSA products of the '90s - Saxos, 106s, Berlingos etc. All
"mass-produced" in reasonable volume (I've not seen any production
figures, but I'd suspect into four figures) alongside the internal
combustion versions. La Rochelle wasn't their only reason for production
- they were standard production models, on UK price lists, especially
the Berlingo.

No, they were all low volume hand made adaptations (and pretty crude
ones at that) of petrol or diesel cars or vans.

No, they weren't.

There won't be a petrol or diesel version of the Leaf; it was designed
from the outset as an electric car.

The Berlingo, for one, was designed from the outset to be powered by
internal combustion or electricity.

On Aug 12, 5:31*pm, Adrian wrote:

The Berlingo, for one, was designed from the outset to be powered by
internal combustion or electricity.

Might explain why the bodywork is made of tin foil, then... (but then
again that's a fairly standard Citroen thing )

Neil

The average UK commute is 8.5 miles or 45 minutes. *Either would be
within the capabilities of most plug-in electric cars. *

Aren’t the vast majority of car journeys less than three miles or
something like that?

For journeys of such short length, cycling is an entirely viable
alternative.

Yet, like so many, I continue to use my car because of the safety
implications of cycling on busy roads.

Until, this issue is addressed, with far better segregation available
for cyclists, I fear we are missing a golden opportunity for an easy
but considerable positive on the environment and our nation’s health.

Arguably, such provision, on that basis, would even pay for itself.

Yet, we seem destined to be stuck with the tokenism of the, wholly
unconvincing, white painted cycleway that runs out just where it’s
usually needed most.

On Wed, 12 Aug 2009 20:35:45 +0100, allanbonnetracy
wrote:
Aren’t the vast majority of car journeys less than three miles or
something like that?

For journeys of such short length, cycling is an entirely viable
alternative.

Yet, like so many, I continue to use my car because of the safety
implications of cycling on busy roads.

It really isn't all that dangerous, even when it's frightening. I doubt
Ireland (if you're there) is much different from the UK, where government
figures show cycling is about as safe per mile as walking.

Until, this issue is addressed, with far better segregation available
for cyclists, I fear we are missing a golden opportunity for an easy
but considerable positive on the environment and our nation’s health.

Segregation doesn't work, for the same reason that annoys you about white
paint. It reduces the chances of rare collisions (being hit from behind
between junctions) but greatly increases the chance of being hit at
junctions, which is much more likely to start with. This is because to be
seen by drivers you need to be where they're looking, which is on the main
carriageway.

Arguably, such provision, on that basis, would even pay for itself.

A recent report says that it is worth spending up to £10,000 to turn just
one person into a regular cyclist.

Sufficient training to overcome the fear you describe would cost at most a
couple of hundred pounds, and would radically reduce both actual and
perceived danger.

Colin McKenzie


--
No-one has ever proved that cycle helmets make cycling any safer at the
population level, and anyway cycling is about as safe per mile as walking.
Make an informed choice - visit www.cyclehelmets.org.