On Aug 11, 5:26*pm, "Recliner" wrote:
In other words, when LU puts the Bakerloo contract out to tender,
Bombardier will be favourite to win it with something pretty similar
to the S-stock for the reasons you list (ie it'll be cheaper for them
to build and maintain the trains), and if someone else wins that's
because they want to offer us an even better deal that outweighs the
economies of scale.

Hopefully, Bombardier's Bakerloo bid will be based on the 2009, not the
S stock!

Haha, yes, fail.

However, they won't be able to just offer more 2009 stock. For one
thing, I think the 2009 stock is too big for the Bakerloo and Picc
tunnels, so even if Bombardier's bid(s) for these lines look like the
2009 stock, they'll actually be slightly smaller.

True, or at least "true so 'tis claimed". I imagine that squishing a
2009-stock to fit the Bakerloo loading gauge and adjusting the
equipment used to produce the 2009 stock to produce the squished stock
would be significantly easier than designing a Tube gauge train and
setting up a production line from scratch, though.

OTOH, Alstom still has the ability to produce 1995/96 stock
bodyshells, as it did so a couple of years ago, the 1995 stock uses
modern IGBT traction and meets RVAR, and Alstom does the maintenance
contract on it - so they ought to be able to put up a reasonably
competitive bid.

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

"John B" wrote in message

On Aug 11, 5:26 pm, "Recliner" wrote:
In other words, when LU puts the Bakerloo contract out to tender,
Bombardier will be favourite to win it with something pretty similar
to the S-stock for the reasons you list (ie it'll be cheaper for
them to build and maintain the trains), and if someone else wins
that's because they want to offer us an even better deal that
outweighs the economies of scale.

Hopefully, Bombardier's Bakerloo bid will be based on the 2009, not
the S stock!

Haha, yes, fail.

However, they won't be able to just offer more 2009 stock. For one
thing, I think the 2009 stock is too big for the Bakerloo and Picc
tunnels, so even if Bombardier's bid(s) for these lines look like the
2009 stock, they'll actually be slightly smaller.

True, or at least "true so 'tis claimed". I imagine that squishing a
2009-stock to fit the Bakerloo loading gauge and adjusting the
equipment used to produce the 2009 stock to produce the squished stock
would be significantly easier than designing a Tube gauge train and
setting up a production line from scratch, though.

Indeed, and I bet they had this in mind when designing the 2009 stock.
After all, they must have thought they had the Bakerloo order in the bag
until Metronet collapsed.


OTOH, Alstom still has the ability to produce 1995/96 stock
bodyshells, as it did so a couple of years ago, the 1995 stock uses
modern IGBT traction and meets RVAR, and Alstom does the maintenance
contract on it - so they ought to be able to put up a reasonably
competitive bid.

Yes, it seems very likely that any Alstom bid would indeed be based on
the 1995/6 stock. It produced complete new trains and carriages for the
recent Jubilee lengthening project, which went very smoothly (I hope it
does as well with the similar Pendo project). That's why I mentioned
them, and not Siemens, Hitachi, etc, who may also want to bid for the
next big LUL order.

On Tue, 11 Aug 2009 09:32:36 -0700 (PDT)
John B wrote:
True, or at least "true so 'tis claimed". I imagine that squishing a
2009-stock to fit the Bakerloo loading gauge and adjusting the
equipment used to produce the 2009 stock to produce the squished stock
would be significantly easier than designing a Tube gauge train and
setting up a production line from scratch, though.

If apparently the 09 stock did get dragged through the piccadilly line
tunnels without incident then we can't be talking much difference between
09 and other tube stocks can we? Maybe a few centimeters one way or the
other at most which surely wouldn't make much difference to equipment?

Its not like a train builder having to squash a UIC loading gauge train
by 6 inches width and a foot in height to fit the UKs hopeless mainline loading
gauge.

B2003

On Wed, 12 Aug 2009 19:40:33 +0100
Paul Corfield wrote:

If apparently the 09 stock did get dragged through the piccadilly line
tunnels without incident then we can't be talking much difference between
09 and other tube stocks can we? Maybe a few centimeters one way or the
other at most which surely wouldn't make much difference to equipment?

Did it arrive that way? I thought it was delivered by road rather than
rail and then across the tube network. I'd genuinely like to know the
answer to this so if anyone can point me at the facts it'd be good.

Thats what people on here were saying. I've no idea if its true. But it
occured to me that the victoria line uses an old piccadilly line tunnel on
the northbound at finsbury park and I very much doubt they would have
bothered to spend a fortune to enlarge it by a few inches so as 09 stock
has to fit through it must be pretty close to standard tube gauge.

B2003

On 13 Aug, 09:51, wrote:
On Wed, 12 Aug 2009 19:40:33 +0100

Paul Corfield wrote:

If apparently the 09 stock did get dragged through the piccadilly line
tunnels without incident then we can't be talking much difference between
09 and other tube stocks can we? Maybe a few centimeters one way or the
other at most which surely wouldn't make much difference to equipment?

Did it arrive that way? *I thought it was delivered by road rather than
rail and then across the tube network. *I'd genuinely like to know the
answer to this so if anyone can point me at the facts it'd be good.

Thats what people on here were saying. I've no idea if its true. But it
occured to me that the victoria line uses an old piccadilly line tunnel on
the northbound at finsbury park and I very much doubt they would have
bothered to spend a fortune to enlarge it by a few inches so as 09 stock
has to fit through it must be pretty close to standard tube gauge.

B2003

Isn't it more to do with the bends rather than the diameter?

On Thu, 13 Aug 2009 02:39:57 -0700 (PDT)
MIG wrote:
the northbound at finsbury park and I very much doubt they would have
bothered to spend a fortune to enlarge it by a few inches so as 09 stock
has to fit through it must be pretty close to standard tube gauge.

B2003

Isn't it more to do with the bends rather than the diameter?

Beats me. If the carraiges are the same length as the current 67 stock
then they're shorter than piccadilly line ones so bends should be less
of an issue.

B2003

"MIG" wrote in message
...
On 13 Aug, 09:51, wrote:
On Wed, 12 Aug 2009 19:40:33 +0100

Paul Corfield wrote:

If apparently the 09 stock did get dragged through the piccadilly line
tunnels without incident then we can't be talking much difference
between
09 and other tube stocks can we? Maybe a few centimeters one way or the
other at most which surely wouldn't make much difference to equipment?

Did it arrive that way? I thought it was delivered by road rather than
rail and then across the tube network. I'd genuinely like to know the
answer to this so if anyone can point me at the facts it'd be good.

Thats what people on here were saying. I've no idea if its true. But it
occured to me that the victoria line uses an old piccadilly line tunnel on
the northbound at finsbury park and I very much doubt they would have
bothered to spend a fortune to enlarge it by a few inches so as 09 stock
has to fit through it must be pretty close to standard tube gauge.

B2003

Isn't it more to do with the bends rather than the diameter?



AIUI, the '09 units on test were road delivered. They are out of gauge for
other tube lines (we're talking maybe 20-25mm) with the appropriate
kinematic envelope for operational speeds. I suspect they could be crawled
through tight spots if the need arose. Current practice (as distinct from
past LT practice) would suggest little if any need for through operation on
other lines, and no plans to "cascade" stock.

Finsbury Park was extensively remodelled to provide UP-UP and DOWN-DOWN
train flows and cross platform interchanges between Picc and Vic. It
replaced the previous layout which provided for terminating GN&C trains of
"main line" loading gauge. The line of the Victoria route means that little
if any old Piccadilly running tunnel remains in use as such. As the Vic has
just been going through a rebuild from the track up, any minor structure
gauge anolomies would have been dealt with.

HTH

DW downunder

"DW downunder" noname wrote in message
u
"MIG" wrote in message
...
On 13 Aug, 09:51, wrote:
On Wed, 12 Aug 2009 19:40:33 +0100

Paul Corfield wrote:

If apparently the 09 stock did get dragged through the piccadilly
line tunnels without incident then we can't be talking much
difference between
09 and other tube stocks can we? Maybe a few centimeters one way
or the other at most which surely wouldn't make much difference to
equipment?

Did it arrive that way? I thought it was delivered by road rather
than rail and then across the tube network. I'd genuinely like to
know the answer to this so if anyone can point me at the facts it'd
be good.

Thats what people on here were saying. I've no idea if its true. But
it occured to me that the victoria line uses an old piccadilly line
tunnel on the northbound at finsbury park and I very much doubt they
would have bothered to spend a fortune to enlarge it by a few inches
so as 09 stock has to fit through it must be pretty close to
standard tube gauge. B2003

Isn't it more to do with the bends rather than the diameter?



AIUI, the '09 units on test were road delivered. They are out of
gauge for other tube lines (we're talking maybe 20-25mm) with the
appropriate kinematic envelope for operational speeds. I suspect they
could be crawled through tight spots if the need arose. Current
practice (as distinct from past LT practice) would suggest little if
any need for through operation on other lines, and no plans to
"cascade" stock.
Finsbury Park was extensively remodelled to provide UP-UP and
DOWN-DOWN train flows and cross platform interchanges between Picc
and Vic. It replaced the previous layout which provided for
terminating GN&C trains of "main line" loading gauge. The line of the
Victoria route means that little if any old Piccadilly running tunnel
remains in use as such. As the Vic has just been going through a
rebuild from the track up, any minor structure gauge anolomies would
have been dealt with.

The ever-reliable Wiki source says that the 2009 stock is 2.68m wide and
the 1973 stock 2.629, so the 2009 stock is apparently 5cm or 2" wider.
It also says that, "Unlike the 1967 Tube Stock, the trains are built 40
millimetres (1.6 in) wider to take advantage of the Victoria line's
slightly larger than normal loading gauge compared to the other deep
level tube lines."

On 13 Aug, 12:22, "Recliner" wrote:
"DW downunder" noname wrote in message

u





"MIG" wrote in message
...
On 13 Aug, 09:51, wrote:
On Wed, 12 Aug 2009 19:40:33 +0100

Paul Corfield wrote:

If apparently the 09 stock did get dragged through the piccadilly
line tunnels without incident then we can't be talking much
difference between
09 and other tube stocks can we? Maybe a few centimeters one way
or the other at most which surely wouldn't make much difference to
equipment?

Did it arrive that way? I thought it was delivered by road rather
than rail and then across the tube network. I'd genuinely like to
know the answer to this so if anyone can point me at the facts it'd
be good.

Thats what people on here were saying. I've no idea if its true. But
it occured to me that the victoria line uses an old piccadilly line
tunnel on the northbound at finsbury park and I very much doubt they
would have bothered to spend a fortune to enlarge it by a few inches
so as 09 stock has to fit through it must be pretty close to
standard tube gauge. B2003

Isn't it more to do with the bends rather than the diameter?

AIUI, the '09 units on test were road delivered. They are out of
gauge for other tube lines (we're talking maybe 20-25mm) with the
appropriate kinematic envelope for operational speeds. I suspect they
could be crawled through tight spots if the need arose. Current
practice (as distinct from past LT practice) would suggest little if
any need for through operation on other lines, and no plans to
"cascade" stock.
Finsbury Park was extensively remodelled to provide UP-UP and
DOWN-DOWN train flows and cross platform interchanges between Picc
and Vic. It replaced the previous layout which provided for
terminating GN&C trains of "main line" loading gauge. The line of the
Victoria route means that little if any old Piccadilly running tunnel
remains in use as such. As the Vic has just been going through a
rebuild from the track up, any minor structure gauge anolomies would
have been dealt with.

The ever-reliable Wiki source says that the 2009 stock is 2.68m wide and
the 1973 stock 2.629, so the 2009 stock is apparently 5cm or 2" wider.
It also says that, "Unlike the 1967 Tube Stock, the trains are built 40
millimetres (1.6 in) wider to take advantage of the Victoria line's
slightly larger than normal loading gauge compared to the other deep
level tube lines."

Unfortunately, the unreliable Wikipedia has the 1967 stock as 9' 0
1/16" which would be 2.74m wide. Also unfortunately, it is the only
source I can find for 2009 stock details.

On Thu, 13 Aug 2009 12:22:13 +0100, "Recliner"
wrote:

The ever-reliable Wiki source says that the 2009 stock is 2.68m wide and
the 1973 stock 2.629, so the 2009 stock is apparently 5cm or 2" wider.
It also says that, "Unlike the 1967 Tube Stock, the trains are built 40
millimetres (1.6 in) wider to take advantage of the Victoria line's
slightly larger than normal loading gauge compared to the other deep
level tube lines."


Ironically, one of the reasons why the Victoria Line tunnel was built
to a larger diameter was to reduce air resistance. ;-)