I was thinking of heading for Whitechapel today (from south east).
This is pretty much impossible except by convoluted bus journeys
through traffic.

ELL closed (of course)
DLR suspended
District/Circle suspended
Hammersmith suspended

Plus other huge chunks elsewhere, like the whole Victoria, half the
Jubilee, most of the Metropolitan.

I am just bewildered by it all. Shouldn't we expect something a bit
better than this?

On Sep 12, 12:58 pm, MIG wrote:
I was thinking of heading for Whitechapel today (from south east).
This is pretty much impossible except by convoluted bus journeys
through traffic.

ELL closed (of course)
DLR suspended

Several portions thereof are suspended, but it's not a system wide
suspension (more on this in a mo).

District/Circle suspended

District suspended east of Tower Hill.

Hammersmith suspended

H&C suspended east of Liverpool Street - still running from the City
through to Hammersmith.


Plus other huge chunks elsewhere, like the whole Victoria, half the
Jubilee, most of the Metropolitan.

Wembley Park to Uxbridge and Northwood - which is a pretty crucial
chunk of the line.


I am just bewildered by it all. Shouldn't we expect something a bit
better than this?

My basic take on the weekend closures is that it's for the greater
good - the improvements will come and we'll all benefit in the end,
'short-term pain long-term gain' type stuff. One might well say that's
a naive take on things, and it's always "pie tomorrow".

With regards to your journey, I think I might head to London Bridge
and then take the 40 bus on from there to Aldgate and then walk, or
maybe a bus up Bishopsgate to Liverpool Street station then walk, or
possibly just walk from London Bridge. Or take the DLR from Lewisham-
Mudchute, DLR replacement bus Mudchute-Westferry, then DLR again to
Shadwell (for the short walk to Whitechapel). Both rather less than
ideal, no doubt.

~ ~ ~

With regards to the DLR, I thought DLR suspensions were supposed to
appear on the illustrated Tube map on the service update pages along
with the Tube lines he
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/livetravel...e/default.html

I know London Overground suspensions don't appear, which is stupid
because they should, but I'm sure DLR closures used to appear here -
am I making this up?

One instead has to click on the DLR tab to get the full low down. The
lack of any graphical illustration as to what's going on doesn't help
matters given the extent of the suspensions - the list of closed
routes just serves to boggle my mind somewhat. For the record, this is
what the summary page has to say:

Source:
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/livetravel...r/default.html
---quote---
DOCKLANDS LIGHT RAILWAY: Saturday 12 and Sunday 13 September,
suspended between London City Airport and Blackwall, between Beckton
and Blackwall, between Poplar and Mudchute and between Westferry and
Mudchute. Sunday, also suspended between Bow Church and Stratford.
Rail replacement bus services operate.
---/quote---

There is a link to "more information", which basically lists the
replacement buses operating, but I still find it hard to digest all
that test - I'd far rather just see it shown on a map.

~ ~ ~

One other thing - either replacement bus 'service three' is routed a
rather bizarre way around the Isle of Dogs, or rather more likely the
information is written in a rather confusing manner - the following is
taken from the "more information" page here http://tinyurl.com/
r6uupy:

---quote---
[...]
Service two: between Island Gardens and Beckton, calling at Mudchute,
Crossharbour, South Quay, Canary Wharf, Westferry, Blackwall, East
India, Canning Town, Royal Victoria, Custom House, Prince Regent,
Royal Albert, Beckton Park, Cyprus and Gallions Reach.

Service three (Saturday 0830-1930 Sunday 0930-1930): between Westferry
and Island Gardens, Canary Wharf, South Quay, Crossharbour and
Mudchute.
[...]
---/quote---

(I included 'service two' just to show that there was still a bus that
served Mudchute outside the times service three is running.)

Presumably 'service three' actually goes from Westferry to Canary
Whard, then South Quay, Crossharbour and Mudchute - but if you don't
read between the lines it looks as though it might go on a rather
crazy circular tour of the Isle of Dogs. This is the kind of badly
written stuff we get from the TOCs - I expect better of TfL. (Indeed I
hope for better from the TOCs too, but experience shows they're not
very good at conveying clear information about such things.)

On 12 Sep, 14:03, Mizter T wrote:
On Sep 12, 12:58 pm, MIG wrote:

I was thinking of heading for Whitechapel today (from south east).
This is pretty much impossible except by convoluted bus journeys
through traffic.

ELL closed (of course)
DLR suspended

Several portions thereof are suspended, but it's not a system wide
suspension (more on this in a mo).

Perhaps I should hae said "severed", and the other lines suspended on
the parts I needed to use.


District/Circle suspended

District suspended east of Tower Hill.

Hammersmith suspended

H&C suspended east of Liverpool Street - still running from the City
through to Hammersmith.

True, but I was thinking of the particular journey I was planning how
all routes in that direction seemed to be gone.




Plus other huge chunks elsewhere, like the whole Victoria, half the
Jubilee, most of the Metropolitan.

Wembley Park to Uxbridge and Northwood - which is a pretty crucial
chunk of the line.



I am just bewildered by it all. *Shouldn't we expect something a bit
better than this?

My basic take on the weekend closures is that it's for the greater
good - the improvements will come and we'll all benefit in the end,
'short-term pain long-term gain' type stuff. One might well say that's
a naive take on things, and it's always "pie tomorrow".

With regards to your journey, I think I might head to London Bridge
and then take the 40 bus on from there to Aldgate and then walk, or
maybe a bus up Bishopsgate to Liverpool Street station then walk, or
possibly just walk from London Bridge. Or take the DLR from Lewisham-
Mudchute, DLR replacement bus Mudchute-Westferry, then DLR again to
Shadwell (for the short walk to Whitechapel). Both rather less than
ideal, no doubt.

What I should have done, and did do on the way back, was

Get on the DLR to Mudchute.

Get the 135 to Aldgate Eastish.

Walk/bus along to Whitechapel Gallery area. Not too bad, but a
hostage to traffic and I didn't think of it till passing a 135 stop on
a replacement bus that was too crowded to get off of (people standing/
sitting on the stairs etc).



~ ~ ~

With regards to the DLR, I thought DLR suspensions were supposed to
appear on the illustrated Tube map on the service update pages along
with the Tube lines hehttp://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/livetravel...e/default.html

I know London Overground suspensions don't appear, which is stupid
because they should, but I'm sure DLR closures used to appear here -
am I making this up?

One instead has to click on the DLR tab to get the full low down. The
lack of any graphical illustration as to what's going on doesn't help
matters given the extent of the suspensions - the list of closed
routes just serves to boggle my mind somewhat. For the record, this is
what the summary page has to say:

Source:http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/livetravel...r/default.html
---quote---
DOCKLANDS LIGHT RAILWAY: Saturday 12 and Sunday 13 September,
suspended between London City Airport and Blackwall, between Beckton
and Blackwall, between Poplar and Mudchute and between Westferry and
Mudchute. Sunday, also suspended between Bow Church and Stratford.
Rail replacement bus services operate.
---/quote---

There is a link to "more information", which basically lists the
replacement buses operating, but I still find it hard to digest all
that test - I'd far rather just see it shown on a map.

~ ~ ~

One other thing - either replacement bus 'service three' is routed a
rather bizarre way around the Isle of Dogs, or rather more likely the
information is written in a rather confusing manner - the following is
taken from the "more information" page here http://tinyurl.com/
r6uupy:

---quote---
[...]
Service two: between Island Gardens and Beckton, calling at Mudchute,
Crossharbour, South Quay, Canary Wharf, Westferry, Blackwall, East
India, Canning Town, Royal Victoria, Custom House, Prince Regent,
Royal Albert, Beckton Park, Cyprus and Gallions Reach.

Service three (Saturday 0830-1930 Sunday 0930-1930): between Westferry
and Island Gardens, Canary Wharf, South Quay, Crossharbour and
Mudchute.
[...]
---/quote---

(I included 'service two' just to show that there was still a bus that
served Mudchute outside the times service three is running.)

Presumably 'service three' actually goes from Westferry to Canary
Whard, then South Quay, Crossharbour and Mudchute - but if you don't
read between the lines it looks as though it might go on a rather
crazy circular tour of the Isle of Dogs. This is the kind of badly
written stuff we get from the TOCs - I expect better of TfL. (Indeed I
hope for better from the TOCs too, but experience shows they're not
very good at conveying clear information about such things.)

Just to add to your confusion, the replacement bus I got on the way up
did none of those things. I think it may have been a service 2,
diverted due to overcrowding or something, but it went direct from
Crossharbour to Canary Wharf, so didn't do South Quay but came into
Canary Wharf from the east side.

On 12 Sep, 17:09, MIG wrote:
On 12 Sep, 14:03, Mizter T wrote:
chop

---quote---
[...]
Service two: between Island Gardens and Beckton, calling at Mudchute,
Crossharbour, South Quay, Canary Wharf, Westferry, Blackwall, East
India, Canning Town, Royal Victoria, Custom House, Prince Regent,
Royal Albert, Beckton Park, Cyprus and Gallions Reach.

Service three (Saturday 0830-1930 Sunday 0930-1930): between Westferry
and Island Gardens, Canary Wharf, South Quay, Crossharbour and
Mudchute.
[...]
---/quote---

(I included 'service two' just to show that there was still a bus that
served Mudchute outside the times service three is running.)

Presumably 'service three' actually goes from Westferry to Canary
Whard, then South Quay, Crossharbour and Mudchute - but if you don't
read between the lines it looks as though it might go on a rather
crazy circular tour of the Isle of Dogs. This is the kind of badly
written stuff we get from the TOCs - I expect better of TfL. (Indeed I
hope for better from the TOCs too, but experience shows they're not
very good at conveying clear information about such things.)

Just to add to your confusion, the replacement bus I got on the way up
did none of those things. *I think it may have been a service 2,
diverted due to overcrowding or something, but it went direct from
Crossharbour to Canary Wharf, so didn't do South Quay but came into
Canary Wharf from the east side.

Oh, and I should have said that it went past Blackwall station on its
way into Canary Wharf (after Crossharbour), but didn't stop. I don't
know if it went back there after I bailed out, but one could also get
there by train from Westferry.

Train services seemed to be Tower Gateway to Blackwall and Bank to
Stratford.

On Sat, 12 Sep 2009, MIG wrote:

On 12 Sep, 14:03, Mizter T wrote:
On Sep 12, 12:58 pm, MIG wrote:

I was thinking of heading for Whitechapel today (from south east).
This is pretty much impossible except by convoluted bus journeys
through traffic.

ELL closed (of course)
DLR suspended

District/Circle suspended

Hammersmith suspended

Plus other huge chunks elsewhere, like the whole Victoria, half the
Jubilee, most of the Metropolitan.

What I should have done, and did do on the way back, was

Get on the DLR to Mudchute.
Get the 135 to Aldgate Eastish.

Or:

Get the train to London Bridge
Cycle to Whitechapel Gallery

Faster, cheaper, and more reliable.

I'm not trying to be a smug ******* here, but a a bike is not only the
best way to travel distances up to five miles or so in London, it is *far
and away the best way* to deal with closures.

tom

--
The Impossible is True

On Sep 13, 3:12*pm, Tom Anderson wrote:

On Sat, 12 Sep 2009, MIG wrote:

[snip]

What I should have done, and did do on the way back, was

Get on the DLR to Mudchute.
Get the 135 to Aldgate Eastish.

Or:

Get the train to London Bridge
Cycle to Whitechapel Gallery

Faster, cheaper, and more reliable.

I'm not trying to be a smug ******* here, but a a bike is not only the
best way to travel distances up to five miles or so in London, it is *far
and away the best way* to deal with closures.

I shall tell that to (a) my very pregnant friend; (b) my pal who often
ferries his couple of young kids about London on his own by p/t; (c)
the guys I know who do a bit of painting and decorating around London
and take their own kit with them on p/t, (d) the one-time colleague I
knew who'd love to cycle but cannot because of a health issue (which
cannot in any shape or form be argued to be down to his lifestyle);
(e) my elderly relative who's fit and active but for whom cycling
would now simply be beyond them; (f) the very fit guy I know who needs
to get around town and visit various clients whilst looking sharp, who
despite his considerable fitness perspires a great deal and just isn't
willing to arrive looking flustered in his snazzy suit; (g) the
friends I have who used to live in a high-up flat with no space for
leaving their bikes inside anywhere and who gave up on cycling when
they had their bicycles that were well locked up outside nicked and/or
vandalised.

Also, whilst it applies less to weekends, taking a bike on a train is
not always allowed or possible.

I am totally up for evangelising about cycling around town, and I'm
also well aware that one could dismiss various reasons ('excuses' if
you will) for not cycling as being a bit lame - but all the above are
true examples of where cycling falls down somewhat - another obvious
example is 'asynchronous journeys', if I may call them that (that's
not to say cycling isn't possible for some portions thereof but it can
get a bit fiddly). I do think there is the danger that 'cycle
evangelists' can end up sounding smug and putting others off by
claiming it's the be all and end all when it comes to transportation.

Though that all sounds like I'm having a go at you Tom, and that
wasn't really my intention! I won't go back and edit it because the
various points still stand. Some of them can be (and occasionally are)
addressed by the provision of various facilities - a bike shed for a
block of flats (sorry 'executive apartments' as we must call them
now), more secure cycle parking at stations etc. Some perhaps by a
more general change of attitude (e.g. arriving a bit dishevelled at a
clients having cycled there shouldn't be an issue). And in the
specific case of this specific journey, then yes I'll agree with you
(though I do have to say that taking a bike on a train that has no
designated cycle space is not always the most joyous or relaxing
experience, though one acquires various strategies for dealing with
it).

On Sun, 13 Sep 2009, Mizter T wrote:

On Sep 13, 3:12*pm, Tom Anderson wrote:

On Sat, 12 Sep 2009, MIG wrote:

[snip]

What I should have done, and did do on the way back, was

Get on the DLR to Mudchute.
Get the 135 to Aldgate Eastish.

Or:

Get the train to London Bridge
Cycle to Whitechapel Gallery

Faster, cheaper, and more reliable.

I'm not trying to be a smug ******* here, but a a bike is not only the
best way to travel distances up to five miles or so in London, it is *far
and away the best way* to deal with closures.

I shall tell that to (a) my very pregnant friend;

Ah, fair enough. Recumbent?

(b) my pal who often ferries his couple of young kids about London on
his own by p/t;

Kids can be carried on or ride bikes; admittedly if they're old enough to
ride but still young, this may be a terrifying and unsafe prospect.

(c) the guys I know who do a bit of painting and decorating around
London and take their own kit with them on p/t,

If it's small enough to carry on PT, it's small enough to fit in panniers,
surely? I can carry more in panniers than in my hands.

(d) the one-time colleague I knew who'd love to cycle but cannot because
of a health issue (which cannot in any shape or form be argued to be
down to his lifestyle);

Again, fair enough.

(e) my elderly relative who's fit and active but for whom cycling would
now simply be beyond them;

Once more again, fair enough.

(f) the very fit guy I know who needs to get around town and visit
various clients whilst looking sharp, who despite his considerable
fitness perspires a great deal and just isn't willing to arrive looking
flustered in his snazzy suit;

I was in this situation this summer: working on a client site in North
Finchley, a seven (?) mile ride with about a million feet of climb, in the
peak of the heat. I rode in a tank-top, or topless (mentally scarring
numerous schoolchildren in the process), locked up round the corner from
the office, gave myself five minutes to cool down, and got changed into a
shirt before going into the office. Sometimes i changed in the street (it
wasn't busy), and sometimes in the toilets, between reception and the
actual client. Even including changing, it was faster than any PT option.

(g) the friends I have who used to live in a high-up flat with no space
for leaving their bikes inside anywhere and who gave up on cycling when
they had their bicycles that were well locked up outside nicked and/or
vandalised.

Unfortunate. The decision to live somewhere with nowhere to keep a bike
was theirs, though (unless it wasn't).

Also, whilst it applies less to weekends, taking a bike on a train is
not always allowed or possible.

That is of course entirely true (unless it's a folding bike - is there any
situation where that isn't allowed?). If the journey is a regular
back-and-forth commute, leaving a bike at one end (or both) may be a way
round this, but i can't honestly say this is a general solution.

I am totally up for evangelising about cycling around town, and I'm
also well aware that one could dismiss various reasons ('excuses' if
you will) for not cycling as being a bit lame - but all the above are
true examples of where cycling falls down somewhat -

Some of them certainly are. You're right that bikes are not helpful for
anyone, and i was wrong to imply that.

But i do think bikes are helpful for many more people than currently use
them, and indeed for the great majority of people who have travel problems
in London. The specific individual we were discussing in this thread, for
example!

another obvious example is 'asynchronous journeys', if I may call them
that (that's not to say cycling isn't possible for some portions thereof
but it can get a bit fiddly).

What's an asynchronous journey?

I do think there is the danger that 'cycle evangelists' can end up
sounding smug and putting others off by claiming it's the be all and end
all when it comes to transportation.

I resemble this remark, of course.

Though that all sounds like I'm having a go at you Tom, and that
wasn't really my intention!

No offence taken at all. You were primarly having a go at my statements,
not me, which is always okay. Your more personal comments were carefully
worded, and, moreover, entirely true!

I won't go back and edit it because the various points still stand. Some
of them can be (and occasionally are) addressed by the provision of
various facilities - a bike shed for a block of flats (sorry 'executive
apartments' as we must call them now), more secure cycle parking at
stations etc. Some perhaps by a more general change of attitude (e.g.
arriving a bit dishevelled at a clients having cycled there shouldn't be
an issue). And in the specific case of this specific journey, then yes
I'll agree with you (though I do have to say that taking a bike on a
train that has no designated cycle space is not always the most joyous
or relaxing experience, though one acquires various strategies for
dealing with it).

Oh god, i know. I came back from Leagrave to Kentish Town with a bike last
night, and was jumping up at every station to see if i needed to shift the
bike from one side of the vestibule to the other, when i'd much rather
have been dozing.

On the way out i was in some kind of train that had a big space by the
toilets (plural - there were two, which i didn't know happened), which was
ideal. Presumably it was really a wheelchair space, but no wheelchairmen
came on board, so it all worked out.

tom

--
Intensive Erfrischung

On Sep 13, 4:06*pm, Mizter T wrote:
I'm not trying to be a smug ******* here, but a a bike is not only the
best way to travel distances up to five miles or so in London, it is *far
and away the best way* to deal with closures.

I shall tell that to (a) my very pregnant friend; (b) my pal who often
ferries his couple of young kids about London on his own by p/t; (c)
the guys I know who do a bit of painting and decorating around London
and take their own kit with them on p/t, (d) the one-time colleague I
knew who'd love to cycle but cannot because of a health issue (which
cannot in any shape or form be argued to be down to his lifestyle);
(e) my elderly relative who's fit and active but for whom cycling
would now simply be beyond them; (f) the very fit guy I know who needs
to get around town and visit various clients whilst looking sharp, who
despite his considerable fitness perspires a great deal and just isn't
willing to arrive looking flustered in his snazzy suit; (g) the
friends I have who used to live in a high-up flat with no space for
leaving their bikes inside anywhere and who gave up on cycling when
they had their bicycles that were well locked up outside nicked and/or
vandalised.

In addition to Tom's comments, surely gentlemen c and f won't be hit
by the closures, because they'll be working during the working week
when the tubes aren't closed?

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

Paul Corfield wrote:

I was contemplating popping out this afternoon to do some photography
but I doubt my blood pressure would survive the ordeal of trying to
travel anywhere.

.... and getting searched by the terrorist police every 20 minutes.

On Sep 12, 1:41*pm, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Sat, 12 Sep 2009 04:58:45 -0700 (PDT), MIG

wrote:
I was thinking of heading for Whitechapel today (from south east).
This is pretty much impossible except by convoluted bus journeys
through traffic.

ELL closed (of course)
DLR suspended
District/Circle suspended
Hammersmith suspended

Plus other huge chunks elsewhere, like the whole Victoria, half the
Jubilee, most of the Metropolitan.

I am just bewildered by it all. *Shouldn't we expect something a bit
better than this?

In short - yes. While I know the work has to be done I am fed up to the
back teeth with it all. I loathe rail replacement services. This is now
the 7th weekend out of 8 consecutive weekends when there has been no
Victoria Line service at my end of the line. God knows what it is like
for the poor souls who rely on the Jubilee Line.


Personally I think the biggest problem for many areas is the lack of
coordination between National Rail and LU as to when closures take
place. There have been occasions this year when both the Bakerloo / DC
lines and the Met line have been closed at the same time and these two
route run fairly close most of the way out of London. The same applies
to the Victoria where on occasion the closures have coincided with the
Liverpool Street - Seven Sisters / Tottenham Hale / Walthamstow being
closed.

I suppose we are now paying the penalty for the lack of renewal work
done in past years and playing catch up is going to be painful until
it is finished. I do wonder if some summertime big-bang projects might
be worthwhile, in a similar vein to the Jubilee lengthening closure
between Christmas and New Year, but instead over the week before the
August Bank Holiday, when I understand the Underground is at its
quietest.