"They" really should do something about those wheelchair symbols.
Which ones are interchanges, and which ones aren't? Perhaps just put
a little wheelchair pictogram overlaid on the station symbol, without
the dirty great big circles?

PhilD

--

On Sep 16, 9:16*pm, MIG wrote:

On 15 Sep, 12:36, "Paul Scott" wrote:

Mizter T wrote:
On Sep 14, 10:34 pm, "Nicks" wrote:
Picked up one at an underground station today - new tube map posters
are also up - quite a lot of design changes made! River Thames has
disappeared and zones are no longer shown.

WTF? I mean really, WTF? Is this a misprint I wonder? (If it isn't, I
can see why some could possibly argue about the presence or
otherwise of the rover...

Near Barking presumably?

Free in the Metro, an optional self adhesive river overlay, or a blue
highlighter...

People are getting all hung up about the river, but the much more
serious and sinister issue is that this is paving the way for the
abolition of travelcards and the restoration (already under way) of
point to point fares calculated by formulas not available to the
public.

A conspiracy theory too far, me thinks. Nowadays all rail fares
(whether Tube or mainline) are calculated on a zonal basis, which is a
significant change from yesteryear. The notion that the 'march to
zonality' is somehow going to be turned back now is somewhere between
East Ham and Upney (sorry!).

I do get a bit of why you say that, but I wouldn't go along with the
notion that it's a massive sinister plot.

In message
s.com of Wed, 16 Sep 2009 13:16:19 in uk.transport.london, MIG
writes

[snip]

People are getting all hung up about the river, but the much more
serious and sinister issue is that this is paving the way for the
abolition of travelcards and the restoration (already under way) of
point to point fares calculated by formulas not available to the
public.

I wonder what you mean. I can think of Watford Junction peculiarities
and the difference between the printed and web versions of the two "Your
guide to fares and tickets ..." documents. The printed version says: "If
the time between touching in and touching out exceeds two and a half
hours you will be charged more than the Oyster single fare for your
journey." The actual time budget can now be as low as 70 minutes. I have
also seen suggestions that there will be no consistency between
Underground and National Rail fares when Pay As You Go is rolled out.
Do you refer to anything else?

Moving back to the map; it shows Marylebone to Bayswater via the TWO
Edgware Road stations as a reasonable route - an OSI between them would
make it slightly less unreasonable. Currently, that trip is ticketed as
TWO journeys. (I DO know a walk between Marylebone and Edgware Road
(subsurface) is more reasonable in that trip

I assume a continuing contract means IKEA has the right to dominate Tube
map posters - I would happily lose IKEA's yellow strip.

I find the new maps so much worse than the old that I wonder
"conspiracy?". I can't think who wins. The Mayor might think CUI BONO,
but is too bright to say so. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cui_bono
--
Walter Briscoe

On 17 Sep, 06:03, Walter Briscoe wrote:
In message
s.com of Wed, 16 Sep 2009 13:16:19 in uk.transport.london, MIG
writes

[snip]

People are getting all hung up about the river, but the much more
serious and sinister issue is that this is paving the way for the
abolition of travelcards and the restoration (already under way) of
point to point fares calculated by formulas not available to the
public.

I wonder what you mean. I can think of Watford Junction peculiarities
and the difference between the printed and web versions of the two "Your
guide to fares and tickets ..." documents. The printed version says: "If
the time between touching in and touching out exceeds two and a half
hours you will be charged more than the Oyster single fare for your
journey." The actual time budget can now be as low as 70 minutes. I have
also seen suggestions that there will be no consistency between
Underground and National Rail fares when Pay As You Go is rolled out.
Do you refer to anything else?

Moving back to the map; it shows Marylebone to Bayswater via the TWO
Edgware Road stations as a reasonable route - an OSI between them would
make it slightly less unreasonable. Currently, that trip is ticketed as
TWO journeys. (I DO know a walk between Marylebone and Edgware Road
(subsurface) is more reasonable in that trip

I assume a continuing contract means IKEA has the right to dominate Tube
map posters - I would happily lose IKEA's yellow strip.

I find the new maps so much worse than the old that I wonder
"conspiracy?". I can't think who wins. The Mayor might think CUI BONO,
but is too bright to say so. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cui_bono
--
Walter Briscoe

Well, the thing is (in answer to Mizter T as well) that "conspiracy"
doesn't really consist of Blofeld and the rest sitting round a table
and planning to be evil.

It's more about how people will put more effort into things that fit
into their preferred vision for the future and less effort into things
that don't, and also cooperate with others who turn out to be thinking
the same way.

More importantly, they will do or approve things which happen to be
consistent with their preferred future, even if they have no active
plans for getting there.

So Boris, ie the Tories, undoubtedly prefers a future where fares can
be raised without it being blatantly obvious. Point to point PAYG
fares are much easier to raise in subtle ways by recalculations and so
on without appearing to be across-the-board increases (and without
people even noticing what they are paying with autotopup etc).

I'm quite sure that they have no actual plan for how they on Earth
they can just abolish zones and travelcards and raise fares, but I
also think that they'd love to have that situation. This map is just
one little logical building block that's consistent with that vision.

On 17 Sep, 21:42, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 01:12:10 -0700 (PDT), MIG

wrote:
So Boris, ie the Tories, undoubtedly prefers a future where fares can
be raised without it being blatantly obvious. *Point to point PAYG
fares are much easier to raise in subtle ways by recalculations and so
on without appearing to be across-the-board increases (and without
people even noticing what they are paying with autotopup etc).

I'm quite sure that they have no actual plan for how they on Earth
they can just abolish zones and travelcards and raise fares, but I
also think that they'd love to have that situation. *This map is just
one little logical building block that's consistent with that vision.

They can't abolish Travelcard - it would be political death not only in
London but also in the home counties. *I believe Travelcard is also a
"protected" product under the Railways Act plus there are other
governing agreements that would be hard to unravel.

Ye - es, I can see that, although maybe an alternative would be to
eventually put up travelcard prices at a time when no one is using
them any more. Smartcard outboundary seasons would probably kill them
off completely, even if they are technically available. And once
everyone is on PAYG ...

TfL was trying to claim that PAYG was a replacement for travelcards
years ago, and no doubt they will push for that again if ever PAYG is
accepted on NR.

I mean, the huge change in fares structure that is PAYG and point to
point* has already happened; it's just that they've had to keep the
old one as well due to the inertia of NR.

*even if calculated on a zonal basis for now

much useful insight chomped

On 17 Sep, 22:31, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 14:13:23 -0700 (PDT), MIG





wrote:
On 17 Sep, 21:42, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 01:12:10 -0700 (PDT), MIG

wrote:
So Boris, ie the Tories, undoubtedly prefers a future where fares can
be raised without it being blatantly obvious. *Point to point PAYG
fares are much easier to raise in subtle ways by recalculations and so
on without appearing to be across-the-board increases (and without
people even noticing what they are paying with autotopup etc).

I'm quite sure that they have no actual plan for how they on Earth
they can just abolish zones and travelcards and raise fares, but I
also think that they'd love to have that situation. *This map is just
one little logical building block that's consistent with that vision.

They can't abolish Travelcard - it would be political death not only in
London but also in the home counties. *I believe Travelcard is also a
"protected" product under the Railways Act plus there are other
governing agreements that would be hard to unravel.

Ye - es, I can see that, although maybe an alternative would be to
eventually put up travelcard prices at a time when no one is using
them any more. *Smartcard outboundary seasons would probably kill them
off completely, even if they are technically available. *And once
everyone is on PAYG ...

Sorry but not everyone will go to PAYG. *Travelcard is too well
established for it to be withdrawn or to suddenly lose its share of the
market. It's too convenient a product. *It also allows things that PAYG
doesn't because of its commercial rules. For that reason also there will
always be a demand for the more flexible product.

TfL was trying to claim that PAYG was a replacement for travelcards
years ago, and no doubt they will push for that again if ever PAYG is
accepted on NR.

I can't recall TfL ever making that statement.


Just on that, I was thinking of the "Blue is the new pink" campaign
that had to be pulled after an ASA ruling (or whichever relevant
authority).

On Sep 14, 5:34*pm, "Nicks" wrote:
Picked up one at an underground station today - new tube map posters are
also up - quite a lot of design changes made! River Thames has disappeared
and zones are no longer shown.

Nicks

Actually NYC eliminated the zone map in the 70's

In message
s.com of Sat, 19 Sep 2009 20:38:34 in uk.transport.london,
" writes
On Sep 14, 5:34*pm, "Nicks" wrote:
Picked up one at an underground station today - new tube map posters are
also up - quite a lot of design changes made! River Thames has disappeared
and zones are no longer shown.

Nicks

Actually NYC eliminated the zone map in the 70's

Irrelevantly interesting
I worked in NYC in 1983.
All journeys were flat rate and cost a token which AFAIR cost $0.90.

London Underground has distance-related charging by zones.
The cost of most journeys is a complicated function of class of customer
(Adult; child 0-10; child 11-15; etc.), oyster or paper ticket, peak or
off peak and zones traversed.

Losing zones from the maps seems gross to me.

There are 2 fares guides for zones 1-6 and zones 7-9. You can view them
via http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/faresandtickets/2930.aspx

Just to make things interesting, paper guides at stations are slightly
obsolete. They say Oyster Pay as You Go Journeys must be completed in
2.5 hours; reality and web documents say 70 minutes to 4 hours.
--
Walter Briscoe

In message , Walter Briscoe
writes
There are 2 fares guides for zones 1-6 and zones 7-9. You can view them
via http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/faresandtickets/2930.aspx

Before reading this in full, I had no idea that the system was so
ridiculously complicated - it must completely baffle the visitor from
overseas. And even such a long document appears to give up at some
points - e.g. saying there are special fares on some overground
journeys, "ask at your local station for details".

It was also out-of-date even when first issued. It claims you can use
Oyster on National Rail services between West Hampstead and Moorgate -
would be interesting for TfL to suggest what route to take.


--
Clive Page

"Clive Page" wrote in message
...
In message , Walter Briscoe
writes
There are 2 fares guides for zones 1-6 and zones 7-9. You can view them
via http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tickets/faresandtickets/2930.aspx

It was also out-of-date even when first issued. It claims you can use
Oyster on National Rail services between West Hampstead and Moorgate -
would be interesting for TfL to suggest what route to take.

But when issued in Jan 2009 you could still travel West Hampstead to
Moorgate on FCC(Thameslink)? Closure didn't happen until 22nd March...

Paul S