Just wondering:
If someone were to produce a historical London bus map in the style of Mike
Harris' excellent series of maps (www.busmap.co.uk) for 1829 when George
Shillibeer's first omnibus route started, what other public transport would
need to appear on the map? And how complete could that information ever hope to
be?
I was thinking there'd be a couple of railways, but it seems probably not. I
presume there would have been some ferries across or along the Thames, and
stagecoach routes. Were there ever any passenger services along the canals? Or
any local road transport of any kind?
TIA

"Anoracart" wrote in message
...
Just wondering:
If someone were to produce a historical London bus map in the style of
Mike
Harris' excellent series of maps (www.busmap.co.uk) for 1829 when George
Shillibeer's first omnibus route started, what other public transport
would
need to appear on the map? And how complete could that information ever
hope to
be?
I was thinking there'd be a couple of railways, but it seems probably not.
I
presume there would have been some ferries across or along the Thames, and
stagecoach routes. Were there ever any passenger services along the
canals? Or
any local road transport of any kind?
TIA

The only scheduled service would have been on the canals and rivers.
Shillibeer's was the first omnibus service.

There were no passenger railways in the south of England in 1829. The first
passenger railway in the London area (IIRC) was the London & Greenwich the
first section of which opened in about 1836.

From: "Cast_Iron"
Date: 04/11/2003 22:25 GMT Standard Time

From: "Cast_Iron"
Date: 04/11/2003 22:25 GMT Standard Time

There were no passenger railways in the south of England in 1829.

Although the Canterbury & Whitstable was under construction at the time (it
opened the following May). Since the question referred to what might appear on
a historical transport map produced today, I'd suggest that the "Crab & Winkle"
would at least be shown as a dotted line annotated "Under construction".

In message , Anoracart
writes

If someone were to produce a historical London bus map in the style of Mike
Harris' excellent series of maps (www.busmap.co.uk) for 1829 when George
Shillibeer's first omnibus route started, what other public transport would
need to appear on the map?

Just about none if the term "public transport" is taken literally. Even
Shillibeer's enterprise was too costly for most people at the time - one
shilling a ride, which was most of a complete day's pay for an
agricultural labourer in 1829.

And how complete could that information ever hope to be?

Because public transport in the modern sense was almost unknown at the
time, the question is rather moot. Everyone except the wealthy lived
within walking distance of their work at this date.

I was thinking there'd be a couple of railways, but it seems probably not.

Not before 1836.

I presume there would have been some ferries across or along the
Thames, and stagecoach routes.

Thames boatmen provided river transport, but these would have been hire
services, more like taxis than public transport. There were numerous
short- and long-stagecoach services (about 600 operating out of London I
seem to remember). These are reasonably well documented but again fares
were prohibitively high for most people - not surprising given the slow
speed, limited capacity and need to stable and change horses at frequent
intervals. All of these reasons contributed to the rapid success of the
railways in creating true public transport only a decade a later.

Were there ever any passenger services along the canals?

Not as far as I know. Canals were designed for shipping heavy good and
were (and are) incredibly slow. It would probably have been quicker for
a passenger to walk!

Or any local road transport of any kind?

Short stage-coach routes ran from the centre of London to places like
Enfield and Edmonton. The fares were almost three times the rate of Mr
Shillibeer's omnibus, so again this can't really be described as public
transport. The bottom line is that most people walked.

--
Paul Terry

JRS: In article , seen in
news:uk.transport.london, Paul Terry
posted at Tue, 4 Nov 2003 23:39:08 :-

Were there ever any passenger services along the canals?

Not as far as I know. Canals were designed for shipping heavy good and
were (and are) incredibly slow. It would probably have been quicker for
a passenger to walk!

Read the beginning of "Hornblower and the 'Atropos'" by C S Forester.

Gloucester to London at a penny a mile first class; reaching 9 mph. Are
you a brisk walker?

Granted, it does not prove passenger services along canals within 1829
London.

There may be references in Patrick O'Brian, too.

--
© John Stockton, Surrey, UK. Turnpike v4.00 MIME. ©
Web URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/ - FAQqish topics, acronyms & links;
some Astro stuff via astro.htm, gravity0.htm; quotes.htm; pascal.htm; &c, &c.
No Encoding. Quotes before replies. Snip well. Write clearly. Don't Mail News.

In message , Dr John Stockton
writes

Read the beginning of "Hornblower and the 'Atropos'" by C S Forester.

Gloucester to London at a penny a mile first class; reaching 9 mph.

"Reaching" is the operative word - unfortunately the average speed tends
to drop markedly when you reach a lock.

Are you a brisk walker?

No, but I'm fast enough to overtake a flyboat negotiating the six locks
of the Hanwell flight.

You are quite right to point out that canal flyboats offered a passenger
service, but I've always understood these to have been intercity routes,
at least so far as London was concerned. I doubt that they stopped to
pick up local traffic.

And, as I say, the average speed of a flyboat depended on the number of
locks in the way - Reading to Bath by flyboat took 36 hours in 1830.

Granted, it does not prove passenger services along canals within 1829
London.

Pickfords were operating a London-Birmingham service, more or less twice
a day, at that time, although the journey took two days. I imagine it
would have terminated at Paddington since I doubt that the Regent's
canal would have supported the fast horses and elaborate overtaking
mechanism needed by flyboats.

However, I see that there was a "well-used" Paddington-Uxbridge canal
service for passengers in the early 19th century that might possibly
qualify for a 1829 map:

http://www.canalmuseum.org.uk/history/grandjun.htm

I've no idea of the speed, but there's no more than one lock in the way
so it might well have been reasonably fast.

--
Paul Terry