On Oct 24, 1:24*pm, "Joseph D. Korman" wrote:
Peter T. Daniels wrote:
On Oct 24, 8:21 am, "
wrote:

wrote:

On Thu, 22 Oct 2009 17:26:52 +0100
Roland Perry wrote:

In message , at 10:58:17 on Thu, 22 Oct 2009,
remarked:

If london had a flat fare system it wouldn't need all this overcomplicated
gate ******** anyway. You'd pay the fare to get through the entry gates with
a token or oyster or whatever and the exit gates could be freely revolving
turnstyles.

A flat fare system that coped with Covent Garden to Leicester Square as
well as Epping to Aylesbury, would be a feat to behold.

They managed a flat fare in New York. You ever looked at the distance between
Times Square and Far Rockaway?

B2003

It used to be a double fare out to Far Rockaway some years ago, though,
wasn't it? How did that work?-

Exiting in Rockaway required a token. Entering in Rockaway required
two tokens.

There was some sort of paper transfer for people who were traveling
within the Rockaways (described here within the last few weeks).

Here's a scan of the transfer:http://www.thejoekorner.com/transfers/rockline.gif

The local passenger still paid the double fare. *Paid three on entering
and got one back on the exit. *This was to protect the then private bus
company from 'unfair' competition from the city owned subway line.

How did they get the third token from the local traveler?

We had a "bungalow" there in 1955 or 1956 (whichever summer the major
hurricane threatened, so we had to leave ahead of schedule), and I
remember the double fare.

Peter T. Daniels wrote:
On Oct 24, 1:24*pm, "Joseph D. Korman" wrote:
Here's a scan of the transfer: http://www.thejoekorner.com/transfers/rockline.gif

The local passenger still paid the double fare. *Paid three on entering
and got one back on the exit. *This was to protect the then private bus
company from 'unfair' competition from the city owned subway line.

How did they get the third token from the local traveler?

If you follow the link to image, you'll see that the transfer is
called a "Special Refund Ticket" which cost one token, refundable
upon exiting at an eligible station.

--
Steven O'Neill
Brooklyn, NY http://www.panix.com/~steveo

On Sat, 24 Oct 2009 16:38:38 +0100
"David A Stocks" wrote:
They managed a flat fare in New York. You ever looked at the distance
between
Times Square and Far Rockaway?

NY's flat fare only worked because geology and history combined to provide a
system that doesn't have the lack of capacity in the central area that is
experienced by London.

If you can imagine London with most of the central zone lines sub-surface
rather than deep tunnel, and express and local services on each route
(especially the east-west routes), then you could start thinking about a
flat fare. Having 2 or 3 large mainline hub termini in the middle rather
than a load of smaller stations scattered around the edge would help as
well.

Sorry , I don't follow your reasoning. So because new york has more stations
and lines in the central area it can charge a flat fare? Eh? I know NYC
has twice the number of stations than london (but the same route miles) but
that means twice the maintenance costs all other things being equal so if
anything it should be a reason NOT to have a flat fare.

B2003

Peter T. Daniels wrote:
On Oct 24, 1:24 pm, "Joseph D. Korman" wrote:

Peter T. Daniels wrote:

exiting in Rockaway required a token. Entering in Rockaway required
two tokens.

There was some sort of paper transfer for people who were traveling
within the Rockaways (described here within the last few weeks).

Here's a scan of the transfer:http://www.thejoekorner.com/transfers/rockline.gif

The local passenger still paid the double fare. Paid three on entering
and got one back on the exit. This was to protect the then private bus
company from 'unfair' competition from the city owned subway line.


How did they get the third token from the local traveler?

We had a "bungalow" there in 1955 or 1956 (whichever summer the major
hurricane threatened, so we had to leave ahead of schedule), and I
remember the double fare.

The back of the transfer explains it. You 'buy' the transfer from the
RR Clerk plus the two token to get into the system. When you leave the
system, you turn in the transfer and the clerk lets you out without
using the turnstile. You got your choice of either the cash fare or a
token.

--
-------------------------------------------------
| Joseph D. Korman |
| |
| Visit The JoeKorNer at |
| http://www.thejoekorner.com |
|-------------------------------------------------|
| The light at the end of the tunnel ... |
| may be a train going the other way! |
| Brooklyn Tech Grads build things that work!('66)|
|-------------------------------------------------|
| All outgoing E-mail is scanned by NAV |
-------------------------------------------------

On Oct 24, 5:22*pm, "Joseph D. Korman" wrote:
Peter T. Daniels wrote:
On Oct 24, 1:24 pm, "Joseph D. Korman" wrote:

Peter T. Daniels wrote:

exiting in Rockaway required a token. Entering in Rockaway required
two tokens.

There was some sort of paper transfer for people who were traveling
within the Rockaways (described here within the last few weeks).

Here's a scan of the transfer:http://www.thejoekorner.com/transfers/rockline.gif

The local passenger still paid the double fare. *Paid three on entering
and got one back on the exit. *This was to protect the then private bus
company from 'unfair' competition from the city owned subway line.

How did they get the third token from the local traveler?

We had a "bungalow" there in 1955 or 1956 (whichever summer the major
hurricane threatened, so we had to leave ahead of schedule), and I
remember the double fare.

The back of the transfer explains it. *You 'buy' the transfer from the
RR Clerk plus the two token to get into the system. *When you leave the
system, you turn in the transfer and the clerk lets you out without
using the turnstile. *You got your choice of either the cash fare or a
token.

Explain the logic? You can either spend three tokens (two to get in
and one to get out) or two tokens plus the price of one token, plus
having to deal with a piece of paper to get out?

How does this benefit anyone -- TA, passenger (they weren't
"customers" yet), or local bus company?

Peter T. Daniels wrote:
On Oct 24, 5:22 pm, "Joseph D. Korman" wrote:

Peter T. Daniels wrote:

On Oct 24, 1:24 pm, "Joseph D. Korman" wrote:

Peter T. Daniels wrote:

exiting in Rockaway required a token. Entering in Rockaway required
two tokens.

There was some sort of paper transfer for people who were traveling
within the Rockaways (described here within the last few weeks).

Here's a scan of the transfer:http://www.thejoekorner.com/transfers/rockline.gif

The local passenger still paid the double fare. Paid three on entering
and got one back on the exit. This was to protect the then private bus
company from 'unfair' competition from the city owned subway line.

How did they get the third token from the local traveler?

We had a "bungalow" there in 1955 or 1956 (whichever summer the major
hurricane threatened, so we had to leave ahead of schedule), and I
remember the double fare.

The back of the transfer explains it. You 'buy' the transfer from the
RR Clerk plus the two token to get into the system. When you leave the
system, you turn in the transfer and the clerk lets you out without
using the turnstile. You got your choice of either the cash fare or a
token.


Explain the logic? You can either spend three tokens (two to get in
and one to get out) or two tokens plus the price of one token, plus
having to deal with a piece of paper to get out?

How does this benefit anyone -- TA, passenger (they weren't
"customers" yet), or local bus company?

You miss the point, local riding by subway still cost two fares. The
bus took longer to travel, at least between the end stations and
Hammel's Wye. The thought was, if the subway charged the same fare, the
bus company would lose riders.

At the time the transfers I posted were sold, the fare was 20 cents.
You paid 60 to get on and got back 20, net fare 40 cents. The bus
charged 20 cents.


--
-------------------------------------------------
| Joseph D. Korman |
| |
| Visit The JoeKorNer at |
| http://www.thejoekorner.com |
|-------------------------------------------------|
| The light at the end of the tunnel ... |
| may be a train going the other way! |
| Brooklyn Tech Grads build things that work!('66)|
|-------------------------------------------------|
| All outgoing E-mail is scanned by NAV |
-------------------------------------------------

On Sat, 24 Oct 2009 19:19:38 +0100, wrote:

Don't special fares apply between Kenton and Harrow & Wealdstone, on the
Bakerloo Line? What's that about?

I think that has gone since PAYG was launched and TfL took over London
Overground.

The answer to your question would be "history and BR and then TOC
intransigence". LUL tried to get rid of that nonsense years ago and was
told to "go away" ever so politely by the "big railway".

What was the difference in fares?

LU zonal singles and returns (and LT cards) weren't valid to H&W. You
had to get a ticket to it as if it were an NR station (just like e.g.
Headstone Lane).

Also, was the section between Kenton
and H&W operated by National Rail? What about between Queen's Park and
Kenton?

It was as today.

wrote in message ...
On Sat, 24 Oct 2009 16:38:38 +0100
"David A Stocks" wrote:
They managed a flat fare in New York. You ever looked at the distance
between
Times Square and Far Rockaway?

NY's flat fare only worked because geology and history combined to provide
a
system that doesn't have the lack of capacity in the central area that is
experienced by London.

If you can imagine London with most of the central zone lines sub-surface
rather than deep tunnel, and express and local services on each route
(especially the east-west routes), then you could start thinking about a
flat fare. Having 2 or 3 large mainline hub termini in the middle rather
than a load of smaller stations scattered around the edge would help as
well.

Sorry , I don't follow your reasoning. So because new york has more
stations
and lines in the central area it can charge a flat fare?
That's because you haven't read my post. The *geology* kept the tracks and
stations close to the surface. No deep platform tunnels. No escalators or
lifts. At most local stations the only way to change tracks is via the
street, sacrificing another token in the process.

Eh? I know NYC
has twice the number of stations than london (but the same route miles)
but
that means twice the maintenance costs all other things being equal
The stations are dead cheap compared to London. In addition to the points
above, most of them are entirely below ground and within the confines of the
street above, so there is almost no commercial property space sacrificed at
street level to make way for stations. Compare with the Tottenham Court Road
and Farringdon works currently in progress and the plans for CrossRail,
where lots of commercial property is being demolished to make way for
stations.

so if
anything it should be a reason NOT to have a flat fare.
And I thought it was you who was trying to justify a flat fare, not me ....

The generous capacity provision in the NYC central area allows the flat fare
to work without unacceptable overcrowding, and also encourages people to
walk rather than taking short journeys. A large part of London's zonal fare
system is aimed at throttling back demand for travel to/from/within zone 1.
Once you've gone at all zonal you might as well go the whole the way.

However, as Paul Corfield has pointed out, the MTA receives huge subsidies
to run public transport in NYC. It would be interesting to speculate on
where to put zone boundaries on the NYC subway system, and how the fare
structure would work.

D A Stocks

On Oct 24, 6:47*pm, "Joseph D. Korman" wrote:
Peter T. Daniels wrote:
On Oct 24, 5:22 pm, "Joseph D. Korman" wrote:

Peter T. Daniels wrote:

On Oct 24, 1:24 pm, "Joseph D. Korman" wrote:

Peter T. Daniels wrote:

exiting in Rockaway required a token. Entering in Rockaway required
two tokens.

There was some sort of paper transfer for people who were traveling
within the Rockaways (described here within the last few weeks).

Here's a scan of the transfer:http://www.thejoekorner.com/transfers/rockline.gif

The local passenger still paid the double fare. *Paid three on entering
and got one back on the exit. *This was to protect the then private bus
company from 'unfair' competition from the city owned subway line.

How did they get the third token from the local traveler?

We had a "bungalow" there in 1955 or 1956 (whichever summer the major
hurricane threatened, so we had to leave ahead of schedule), and I
remember the double fare.

The back of the transfer explains it. *You 'buy' the transfer from the
RR Clerk plus the two token to get into the system. *When you leave the
system, you turn in the transfer and the clerk lets you out without
using the turnstile. *You got your choice of either the cash fare or a
token.

Explain the logic? You can either spend three tokens (two to get in
and one to get out) or two tokens plus the price of one token, plus
having to deal with a piece of paper to get out?

How does this benefit anyone -- TA, passenger (they weren't
"customers" yet), or local bus company?

You *miss the point, local riding by subway still cost two fares. *The
bus took longer to travel, at least between the end stations and
Hammel's Wye. *The thought was, if the subway charged the same fare, the
bus company would lose riders.

At the time the transfers I posted were sold, the fare was 20 cents. *
You paid 60 to get on and got back 20, net fare 40 cents. *The bus
charged 20 cents.

Hunh? Someone hands you two dimes when you leave? What's the point of
buying the transfer and selling it back, rather than just taking a
transfer and handing it in when you exit, as they do in Seattle? In
Seattle, riding downtown is free, so you pay when boarding outside
downtown, or when exiting outside downtown -- and if you're passing
through and coming out the other side, you get a "transfer" when you
board and pay, and hand that in instead of paying when you exit.

(Well, that's how it worked in 1984. The last time I was in Seattle, a
few years ago, it didn't come up, but the bus was still free downtown.)

On Oct 24, 2:14*pm, "
wrote:

Why were the Rockaways a double fare zone anyway? Was it because of
distance or to pay the costs of taking over the line from the LIRR?

I believe both.