On Mon, 16 Nov 2009 18:53:14 -0000, Paul Scott wrote:

e.g Stratford (Zone 3) - Liverpool Street (Zone1)

PAYG Off Peak Single NR : £2.00
PAYG Off Peak Single TFL: £2.40

So it will be cheaper to travel on National Rail, a fact that would
surprise a lot of the average punters who, unless explicitly told,
will remain blissfully unaware !

Only if you assume that the long standing (ie well before PAYG on NR was
thought of) dual availability of LU fares on that route will definitely be
cancelled though...

The fact that LU fares are valid on NR between those stations doesn't
prevent NR fares also being valid...

Moreover, interavailability works both ways - so the cheaper NR fare
should be valid on LU between those stations.

Whether they will actually allow you to use that fare (and whether
they can legally prevent you from doing so) is another question...

In article
,
(Uncle-C) wrote:

On 16 Nov, 17:14, Tom Barry wrote:

I'm frankly bemused by all this, but at present I'll look to use PAYG
on NR for journeys not including Z1, where it makes sense (I don't
usually have a travelcard, so OEP idiocies don't apply).

I've looked at the preliminary fares tables which are in the "Mayoral
Document" and it seems that Off Peak travel from Zones 4/3/2 to Zone 1
on NR is going to be cheaper than the equivalent parallel journey if
it were undertaken on TFL.

e.g Stratford (Zone 3) - Liverpool Street (Zone1)

PAYG Off Peak Single NR : £2.00
PAYG Off Peak Single TFL: £2.40


So it will be cheaper to travel on National Rail, a fact that would
surprise a lot of the average punters who, unless explicitly told,
will remain blissfully unaware !

I'd settle for fares to Putney not being at a premium over fares to East
Putney. They are the same if my amount of London travelling is enough to
justify a Day Travelcard from Cambridge but not otherwise, including when,
like tonight, I'm staying in Putney. With the new FCC fares I expect that
Day Travelcards from Cambridge will become even less likely to be
justified.

Although there was a national announcement about NR fares today it didn't
seem to have reached the FCC web site.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On Nov 16, 5:14*pm, Tom Barry wrote:
Ahem. *Example time.

West Ealing (Z3) - Paddington (Z1)

Currently: £2.70/£2.20 (Peak/Offpeak).
Moving to: £2.60/£2.00

Trebles all round!

Now, supposing you want to extend one stop from Paddington to a
convenient Tube station:

West Ealing (Z3) - Edgware Road (Z1)

Currently: £2.70/£2.20
Moving to: £3.70/£3.10

This is the £1.10 premium seemingly applied to any extension from NR to
LU in Z1, but not in other zones. *It only really becomes obvious as a
big price hike if you've got used to an existing PAYG-on-NR deployment
like FGW's.

Now a question - does anyone know at what farescales the following would
be charged at?

Ealing Broadway - Paddington
Ealing Broadway - Edgware Road

Both are, like West Ealing, Z3-Z1 journeys currently charged at
£2.70/£2.20, but there's a case for multiple fare scales applying:

EB - Padd

LU £2.70/£2.40
or
NR £2.60/£2.00

EB - Edgw.Rd.

LU £2.70/£2.40
or
NR/TfL £3.70/£3.10

Yes, this one is interesting - I'd forgotten the Paddington suburban
NR platforms shared a gateline with the H&C.

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

John B wrote:
On Nov 16, 5:14 pm, Tom Barry wrote:

Now a question - does anyone know at what farescales the following
would be charged at?

Ealing Broadway - Paddington
Ealing Broadway - Edgware Road


Yes, this one is interesting - I'd forgotten the Paddington suburban
NR platforms shared a gateline with the H&C.

Seems to be the same conundrum as my West Brompton - Wimbledon upthread.

Any journey with a common LU/NR gateline at both ends appears to be
debatable given the info published so far. IE it isn't just those routes
with 'historic' dual availability?

Paul S

On 14 Nov, 13:17, Uncle-C wrote:
Journey in question is West *Ruislip to Wembley Stadium on Chiltern
Railways. Currently the fare for this journey is £1.10 Off Peak, the
same as a Z6-Z4 Off Peak LU/TFL journey. *I've had a read of some
documents and in the New Year this trip will be priced under a "Train
Company ( National Rail)" set of fares resulting in a new fare of
£1.70 - this seems a staggering percentage increase. I guess there
will be similar increases in fares on other existing Oyster NR *routes
to compensate for Oyster PAYG going network wide ?

uc

The Mayoral document is confusing
Page 17
It excludes Northolt Park and the sudburies from from TFL Charges by
omiting the O
I dont think this is true

for anyone else finding it difficult to locate this doculment it is
MD457

HTH Phil

On Mon, 16 Nov 2009 10:00:57 -0800 (PST),
MIG wrote:
On 16 Nov, 11:05, John B wrote:
On Nov 15, 11:36*am, MIG wrote:


And presumably the cheaper fares will not be the ones where you can
validate at an interchange.

I don't understand your point here. If you get the direct Central Line
train, you'll be charged the Tube fare; if you touch out of Chiltern
and into LU at Marylebone, then you'll be charged the Tube+NR fare.
That's straightforward, simple, and doesn't require any effort on your
part to be charged the right fare.

Just that a system has just been introduced whereby you are assumed to
have gone the more expensive way unless you touch on the cheaper
route. This is going to be reversed in some situations, such as the
Ruislip one.


Travelling via London Euston NR/LU OSI has always attracted a premium
over avoiding the explicit Z1 touch. (Up until recently, when travelling
in the middle of the day it was cheaper to walk to KX to join the
underground than to continue your journey at Euston as going to KX
forced two separate journeys)

I'm not sure what happens now - theres a route validator at Willseden
Junction but there are routes from say Harrow and Wealdstone to not Z1
via the Bakerloo line that didn't require a touch in Z1 so were charged
not Z1.

Tim.


--
God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t,"
and there was light.

http://www.woodall.me.uk/

wrote in message
...
On 14 Nov, 13:17, Uncle-C wrote:
Journey in question is West Ruislip to Wembley Stadium on Chiltern
Railways. Currently the fare for this journey is £1.10 Off Peak, the
same as a Z6-Z4 Off Peak LU/TFL journey. I've had a read of some
documents and in the New Year this trip will be priced under a "Train
Company ( National Rail)" set of fares resulting in a new fare of
£1.70 - this seems a staggering percentage increase. I guess there
will be similar increases in fares on other existing Oyster NR routes
to compensate for Oyster PAYG going network wide ?

uc

The Mayoral document is confusing
Page 17
It excludes Northolt Park and the sudburies from from TFL Charges by
omiting the O
I dont think this is true

That isn't the purpose of that table. It lists the stations where the
'higher entry charge' applies, as under the current system.

That is not quite the same as 'NR fares apply' from this station.

Paul S

On 17 Nov, 11:47, "Paul Scott" wrote:
wrote in message

...
On 14 Nov, 13:17, Uncle-C wrote:

Journey in question is West Ruislip to Wembley Stadium on Chiltern
Railways. Currently the fare for this journey is £1.10 Off Peak, the
same as a Z6-Z4 Off Peak LU/TFL journey. I've had a read of some
documents and in the New Year this trip will be priced under a "Train
Company ( National Rail)" set of fares resulting in a new fare of
£1.70 - this seems a staggering percentage increase. I guess there
will be similar increases in fares on other existing Oyster NR routes
to compensate for Oyster PAYG going network wide ?

uc
The Mayoral document is confusing
Page 17
It excludes Northolt Park and the sudburies from from TFL Charges by
omiting the O
I dont think this is true

That isn't the purpose of that table. It lists the stations where the
'higher entry charge' applies, as under the current system.

That is not quite the same as 'NR fares apply' from this station.

Paul S

Thanks
I guess this means un unresolved PAYG is £5.00 instead of £4.00

HTH

wrote:
On 17 Nov, 11:47, "Paul Scott" wrote:

That isn't the purpose of that table. It lists the stations where the
'higher entry charge' applies, as under the current system.

That is not quite the same as 'NR fares apply' from this station.

Paul S

Thanks
I guess this means un unresolved PAYG is £5.00 instead of £4.00


Well that is the situation as of now. However they go up in January, as
explained in the leaflet, and will also vary for peak and offpeak times...

Paul S

On Mon, 16 Nov 2009 23:08:02 -0000, Paul Scott wrote:

Now a question - does anyone know at what farescales the following
would be charged at?

Ealing Broadway - Paddington
Ealing Broadway - Edgware Road


Yes, this one is interesting - I'd forgotten the Paddington suburban
NR platforms shared a gateline with the H&C.

Seems to be the same conundrum as my West Brompton - Wimbledon upthread.

Presumably it'll be handled as the possibly-via-Z1 journeys are now,
i.e. it'll be assumed you took the quickest and most direct route, and
if there is a longer route that is cheaper, an interchange validator
will be provided to allow you to claim the cheaper fare.