Journey in question is West Ruislip to Wembley Stadium on Chiltern
Railways. Currently the fare for this journey is £1.10 Off Peak, the
same as a Z6-Z4 Off Peak LU/TFL journey. I've had a read of some
documents and in the New Year this trip will be priced under a "Train
Company ( National Rail)" set of fares resulting in a new fare of
£1.70 - this seems a staggering percentage increase. I guess there
will be similar increases in fares on other existing Oyster NR routes
to compensate for Oyster PAYG going network wide ?

uc

On Sat, 14 Nov 2009 14:03:49 +0000, Paul Corfield wrote:

Journey in question is West Ruislip to Wembley Stadium on Chiltern
Railways. Currently the fare for this journey is £1.10 Off Peak, the
same as a Z6-Z4 Off Peak LU/TFL journey. I've had a read of some
documents and in the New Year this trip will be priced under a "Train
Company ( National Rail)" set of fares resulting in a new fare of
£1.70 - this seems a staggering percentage increase. I guess there
will be similar increases in fares on other existing Oyster NR routes
to compensate for Oyster PAYG going network wide ?

Having looked at the Mayoral Decision notice and the values therein then
I think you've identified the applicable fares correctly.

That's disappointing to hear, though not really surprising (easy come,
easy go).

I take it that interavailable routes will still remain on the LU
farescale? Ironically this might make South Ruislip - Marylebone
cheaper than Northolt Park - Marylebone.

On 14 Nov, 14:21, asdf wrote:

I take it that interavailable routes will still remain on the LU
farescale? Ironically this might make South Ruislip - Marylebone
cheaper than Northolt Park - Marylebone.

The fare changes in the New Year do give rise to some intriguing
situations occurring. For example, and correct me if I am mistaken,
there is a special set of fares for a journey combining National Rail
and TFL, so would one have to pay a different set of fares for the
following journey depending on which mode of travel you used ?

South Ruislip - Oxford Circus

Route 1: South Ruislip ( Chiltern ) Marylebone ( Central Line) Oxford
Circus

Route 2: South Ruislip ( Central Line) Oxford Circus.

cheers,
uc

On 15 Nov, 11:03, Uncle-C wrote:
On 14 Nov, 14:21, asdf wrote:

I take it that interavailable routes will still remain on the LU
farescale? Ironically this might make South Ruislip - Marylebone
cheaper than Northolt Park - Marylebone.

The fare changes in the New Year do give rise to some intriguing
situations occurring. For example, and correct me if I am mistaken,
there is a special set of fares for a journey combining National Rail
and TFL, so would one have to pay a different set of fares for the
following journey depending on which mode of travel you used ?

South Ruislip - Oxford Circus

Route 1: South Ruislip ( Chiltern ) Marylebone ( Central Line) Oxford
Circus

Route 2: South Ruislip ( Central Line) Oxford Circus.

cheers,
uc

And presumably the cheaper fares will not be the ones where you can
validate at an interchange.

But underneath all this is a common thread which is that all the
genuine problems caused by Oyster that TfL denies are problems on a
much larger scale on NR, and can't be solved piecemeal.

TfL should have addressed the issues in the first place instead of
just saying "tough, it only affects some people". This is not the
fault of NR, it's the fault of TfL for introducing a system with
serious flaws which they can't ignore when they are scaled up.

As a formerly disenfranchised resident of south London I am gloating
hugely at the immintent implosion of Oyster and laughing at all the
apologists who denied the problems.

On 15 Nov, 11:03, Uncle-C wrote:
On 14 Nov, 14:21, asdf wrote:

I take it that interavailable routes will still remain on the LU
farescale? Ironically this might make South Ruislip - Marylebone
cheaper than Northolt Park - Marylebone.

The fare changes in the New Year do give rise to some intriguing
situations occurring. For example, and correct me if I am mistaken,
there is a special set of fares for a journey combining National Rail
and TFL, so would one have to pay a different set of fares for the
following journey depending on which mode of travel you used ?

South Ruislip - Oxford Circus

Route 1: South Ruislip ( Chiltern ) Marylebone ( Central Line) Oxford
Circus

Route 2: South Ruislip ( Central Line) Oxford Circus.

cheers,
uc

Bakerloo surely
Or Paddington Parly via West Ruislip

HTH

On Nov 15, 11:36*am, MIG wrote:
The fare changes in the New Year do give rise to some intriguing
situations occurring. For example, and correct me if I am mistaken,
there is a special set of fares for a journey combining National Rail
and TFL, so would one have to pay a different set of fares for the
following journey depending on which mode of travel you used ?

South Ruislip - Oxford Circus

Route 1: South Ruislip ( Chiltern ) Marylebone ( Central Line) Oxford
Circus

Route 2: South Ruislip ( Central Line) Oxford Circus.

And presumably the cheaper fares will not be the ones where you can
validate at an interchange.

I don't understand your point here. If you get the direct Central Line
train, you'll be charged the Tube fare; if you touch out of Chiltern
and into LU at Marylebone, then you'll be charged the Tube+NR fare.
That's straightforward, simple, and doesn't require any effort on your
part to be charged the right fare.

But underneath all this is a common thread which is that all the
genuine problems caused by Oyster that TfL denies are problems on a
much larger scale on NR, and can't be solved piecemeal.

TfL should have addressed the issues in the first place instead of
just saying "tough, it only affects some people". *This is not the
fault of NR, it's the fault of TfL for introducing a system with
serious flaws which they can't ignore when they are scaled up.

Err, what?

As a formerly disenfranchised resident of south London I am gloating
hugely at the immintent implosion of Oyster and laughing at all the
apologists who denied the problems.

Err, what?

Oyster will be implemented on NR from January. It'll be more expensive
and annoying than the implementation on TfL modes, especially if the
ridiculous Extension Permit plan survives. So your life will be more
annoying than that of North Londoners, but less annoying than it was.

Meanwhile, the procedure for people who currently use Oyster on TfL or
on interavailable-ticketing services *won't change at all*. How on
earth is that going to lead to an 'implosion'?

--
John Band
john at johnband dot org
www.johnband.org

John B wrote:


Oyster will be implemented on NR from January. It'll be more expensive
and annoying than the implementation on TfL modes, especially if the
ridiculous Extension Permit plan survives. So your life will be more
annoying than that of North Londoners, but less annoying than it was.

Meanwhile, the procedure for people who currently use Oyster on TfL or
on interavailable-ticketing services *won't change at all*. How on
earth is that going to lead to an 'implosion'?


I can foresee one problem - where current NR-originated PAYG journeys
are a bit of a bargain and people have got used to them, they sometimes
instantly stop being a bit of a bargain on 2/1/2010 and sometimes carry
on being a bit of a bargain, while Overground journeys (which Joe Public
won't necessarily judge differently from NR) remain so. Result: confusion.

Ahem. Example time.

West Ealing (Z3) - Paddington (Z1)

Currently: £2.70/£2.20 (Peak/Offpeak).
Moving to: £2.60/£2.00

Trebles all round!

Now, supposing you want to extend one stop from Paddington to a
convenient Tube station:

West Ealing (Z3) - Edgware Road (Z1)

Currently: £2.70/£2.20
Moving to: £3.70/£3.10

This is the £1.10 premium seemingly applied to any extension from NR to
LU in Z1, but not in other zones. It only really becomes obvious as a
big price hike if you've got used to an existing PAYG-on-NR deployment
like FGW's.

Now a question - does anyone know at what farescales the following would
be charged at?

Ealing Broadway - Paddington
Ealing Broadway - Edgware Road

Both are, like West Ealing, Z3-Z1 journeys currently charged at
£2.70/£2.20, but there's a case for multiple fare scales applying:

EB - Padd

LU £2.70/£2.40
or
NR £2.60/£2.00


EB - Edgw.Rd.

LU £2.70/£2.40
or
NR/TfL £3.70/£3.10

I'm frankly bemused by all this, but at present I'll look to use PAYG on
NR for journeys not including Z1, where it makes sense (I don't usually
have a travelcard, so OEP idiocies don't apply).

Tom

On 16 Nov, 11:05, John B wrote:
On Nov 15, 11:36*am, MIG wrote:

The fare changes in the New Year do give rise to some intriguing
situations occurring. For example, and correct me if I am mistaken,
there is a special set of fares for a journey combining National Rail
and TFL, so would one have to pay a different set of fares for the
following journey depending on which mode of travel you used ?

South Ruislip - Oxford Circus

Route 1: South Ruislip ( Chiltern ) Marylebone ( Central Line) Oxford
Circus

Route 2: South Ruislip ( Central Line) Oxford Circus.

And presumably the cheaper fares will not be the ones where you can
validate at an interchange.

I don't understand your point here. If you get the direct Central Line
train, you'll be charged the Tube fare; if you touch out of Chiltern
and into LU at Marylebone, then you'll be charged the Tube+NR fare.
That's straightforward, simple, and doesn't require any effort on your
part to be charged the right fare.

Just that a system has just been introduced whereby you are assumed to
have gone the more expensive way unless you touch on the cheaper
route. This is going to be reversed in some situations, such as the
Ruislip one.


But underneath all this is a common thread which is that all the
genuine problems caused by Oyster that TfL denies are problems on a
much larger scale on NR, and can't be solved piecemeal.

TfL should have addressed the issues in the first place instead of
just saying "tough, it only affects some people". *This is not the
fault of NR, it's the fault of TfL for introducing a system with
serious flaws which they can't ignore when they are scaled up.

Err, what?

We've needed on-train validation and reasonably priced paper
extensions for years, and now they are needed more than ever, but not
on the cards it seems.


As a formerly disenfranchised resident of south London I am gloating
hugely at the immintent implosion of Oyster and laughing at all the
apologists who denied the problems.

Err, what?

Oyster will be implemented on NR from January. It'll be more expensive
and annoying than the implementation on TfL modes, especially if the
ridiculous Extension Permit plan survives. So your life will be more
annoying than that of North Londoners, but less annoying than it was.

Meanwhile, the procedure for people who currently use Oyster on TfL or
on interavailable-ticketing services *won't change at all*. How on
earth is that going to lead to an 'implosion'?

Well, I'll stand back and watch. I'll be using all-zones out-boundary
paper travelcards for the foreseeable.

On 16 Nov, 17:14, Tom Barry wrote:

I'm frankly bemused by all this, but at present I'll look to use PAYG on
NR for journeys not including Z1, where it makes sense (I don't usually
have a travelcard, so OEP idiocies don't apply).

Tom

I've looked at the preliminary fares tables which are in the "Mayoral
Document" and it seems that Off Peak travel from Zones 4/3/2 to Zone 1
on NR is going to be cheaper than the equivalent parallel journey if
it were undertaken on TFL.

e.g Stratford (Zone 3) - Liverpool Street (Zone1)

PAYG Off Peak Single NR : £2.00
PAYG Off Peak Single TFL: £2.40


So it will be cheaper to travel on National Rail, a fact that would
surprise a lot of the average punters who, unless explicitly told,
will remain blissfully unaware !

Uncle-C wrote:
On 16 Nov, 17:14, Tom Barry wrote:

I'm frankly bemused by all this, but at present I'll look to use
PAYG on NR for journeys not including Z1, where it makes sense (I
don't usually have a travelcard, so OEP idiocies don't apply).

Tom

I've looked at the preliminary fares tables which are in the "Mayoral
Document" and it seems that Off Peak travel from Zones 4/3/2 to Zone 1
on NR is going to be cheaper than the equivalent parallel journey if
it were undertaken on TFL.

e.g Stratford (Zone 3) - Liverpool Street (Zone1)

PAYG Off Peak Single NR : £2.00
PAYG Off Peak Single TFL: £2.40

So it will be cheaper to travel on National Rail, a fact that would
surprise a lot of the average punters who, unless explicitly told,
will remain blissfully unaware !

Only if you assume that the long standing (ie well before PAYG on NR was
thought of) dual availability of LU fares on that route will definitely be
cancelled though...

That hasn't been explicitly clarified anywhere, AFAICT...

What about a journey such as West Brompton - Wimbledon with PAYG. They won't
be able to tell whether you used LU or NR as far as I can tell...

Paul S