Neil Williams wrote:

2). I come home in the peak hours to a station where all passengers have
to
squeeze through a narrow hallway where there will only be a couple of
readers at the side. It is completely unrealistic to expect everyone in
peak
hours to stop to touch out on such limited facilities without serious
problems.

Then more readers would be necessary.

The problem is the station just isn't physically designed for that. Wall
space in that hallway is extremely limited because of a standalone cash
point, a ticket machine and the corridor/bridge to the main down platform on
one side and the door to the ticket office on the other. You just couldn't
get enough readers in that would be able to cope with the crowds the station
regularly gets at peak hours and so we come back to the potential for
lengthy queues as people wait to touch out, shoving and even fighting right
by a steep stairway and a real possibility that people will take risks and
try to cross the fast tracks to get to use the reader and direct street exit
there.

(Actually when the station was originally designed the slow and fast tracks
were the other way round so the up platform had both a staircase up to the
ticket hall and the separate street exit, somewhat easing the problem.)

On Fri, 27 Nov 2009 23:23:24 -0000, "Tim Roll-Pickering"
wrote:

The problem is the station just isn't physically designed for that. Wall
space in that hallway is extremely limited because of a standalone cash
point, a ticket machine and the corridor/bridge to the main down platform on
one side and the door to the ticket office on the other. You just couldn't
get enough readers in that would be able to cope with the crowds the station
regularly gets at peak hours and so we come back to the potential for
lengthy queues as people wait to touch out, shoving and even fighting right
by a steep stairway and a real possibility that people will take risks and
try to cross the fast tracks to get to use the reader and direct street exit
there.

Could one or more be put actually on the platform, to be used by
people before they enter the rush to exit?

Neil

--
Neil Williams
Put my first name before the at to reply.

On Fri, 27 Nov 2009, Neil Williams wrote:

On Fri, 27 Nov 2009 04:41:58 -0800 (PST), John B
wrote:

Under your "touching out is mandatory for Travelcard users" model, I'd
be penalised for doing this, because I'd have touched in at Waterloo
and wouldn't have touched out anywhere.

No, because you'd mark the BZ tickets as "only valid with Oyster card
number N" and make them open the barriers at both ends, so you wouldn't
touch your Oyster at all.

So you'd actually be buying a single, and paying for it with your oyster
card. Sounds sensible.

tom

--
.... a tale for which the world is not yet prepared

Neil Williams wrote:

[Forest Gate and making Oyster touching in & out mandatory for all users]
The problem is the station just isn't physically designed for that. Wall
space in that hallway is extremely limited because of a standalone cash
point, a ticket machine and the corridor/bridge to the main down platform
on
one side and the door to the ticket office on the other. You just couldn't
get enough readers in that would be able to cope with the crowds the
station
regularly gets at peak hours and so we come back to the potential for
lengthy queues as people wait to touch out, shoving and even fighting
right
by a steep stairway and a real possibility that people will take risks and
try to cross the fast tracks to get to use the reader and direct street
exit
there.

Could one or more be put actually on the platform, to be used by
people before they enter the rush to exit?

I'd have to look at the platform carefully to be sure but I suspect not. The
stair case opens directly onto the very end of the platform (give or take
the ramps down to the track level) in open air and trains stop right up at
the front to unload the pax. The platform is an island for both the slow up
and fast down tracks, so there's no wall in this section or anything you can
really mount readers against. You'd have to go for standalone readers and
spread them out so people could get to separate ones but you'd still
struggle to get enough in the limited space available and no way are you
going to have enough that could cope with an evening rush hour crowd of
newly released sardines - you will still get a lot of people trying to use
very limited facilities and this on an island platform that has fast trains
running down one side.

(The down platform is different as the station is in a cutting and there's a
huge wall that you could put readers up against, plus you tend not get huge
crowds in one go on that side, give or take West Ham home match days, so you
wouldn't need so many. The fast up platform is generally used by stopping
services during late evenings and weekend engineering works so doesn't have
much passenger traffic.)

On 27 Nov, 11:32, "Tim Roll-Pickering"
wrote:
2). I come home in the peak hours to a station where all passengers have to
squeeze through a narrow hallway where there will only be a couple of
readers at the side. It is completely unrealistic to expect everyone in peak
hours to stop to touch out on such limited facilities without serious
problems. There will be tensions with people who are slow, everyone will
have just spent four minutes literally ram packed into poorly laid out
carriages where tempers do get frayed (and it's only the sardine effect that
stops people being able to swing a punch) and there will be crowds stuck on
the staircase up from the platform. I can seriously envisage some people in
a hurry taking a risk and walking across the mainline tracks in the dark to
use readers on a quiet platform which has an exit directly onto the street.

They do this at the Waterloo end of the WAterloo & City Line already -
the readers (one each side) cope perfectly well as the hoardes reach
the top of the narrow staircase. I think you'd have more problems if
the staircase *wasn't* narrow, as those climbing the centre of the
staircase try & get to one of the readers at the sides.....

btw - OEPs on Oyster cards are surely only valid to stations within
the PAYG area - for example, used as an extension from a Z2 Travelcard
to a zone 6 station, or one of those out-boundary stations in Essex
that are being fitted with readers.

If you need an extension to a Oyster Travelcard to a station outside
the PAYG area, surely your only option - as now - is to buy a paper
extension ticket?

To counter the not touching out problem, maybe *also* loading an 'out-
boundary' OEP onto your Oyster would prevent any excess being charged
after touching in, not touching out, and then when touching in on your
next trip, it detects the out-boundary OEP, and allows the touch in as
normal?

On Sat, 28 Nov 2009 03:58:43 -0800 (PST), Chris wrote:

On 27 Nov, 11:32, "Tim Roll-Pickering"
wrote:
2). I come home in the peak hours to a station where all passengers have to
squeeze through a narrow hallway where there will only be a couple of
readers at the side. It is completely unrealistic to expect everyone in peak
hours to stop to touch out on such limited facilities without serious
problems. There will be tensions with people who are slow, everyone will
have just spent four minutes literally ram packed into poorly laid out
carriages where tempers do get frayed (and it's only the sardine effect that
stops people being able to swing a punch) and there will be crowds stuck on
the staircase up from the platform. I can seriously envisage some people in
a hurry taking a risk and walking across the mainline tracks in the dark to
use readers on a quiet platform which has an exit directly onto the street.

They do this at the Waterloo end of the WAterloo & City Line already -
the readers (one each side) cope perfectly well as the hoardes reach
the top of the narrow staircase.

But currently holders of Oyster Travelcards (which will be most Oyster
users at peak time) do not have to touch those readers.

This sub-thread is about the suggestion of making touching mandatory
for Oyster Travelcard holders.

btw - OEPs on Oyster cards are surely only valid to stations within
the PAYG area - for example, used as an extension from a Z2 Travelcard
to a zone 6 station, or one of those out-boundary stations in Essex
that are being fitted with readers.

If you need an extension to a Oyster Travelcard to a station outside
the PAYG area, surely your only option - as now - is to buy a paper
extension ticket?

To counter the not touching out problem, maybe *also* loading an 'out-
boundary' OEP onto your Oyster would prevent any excess being charged
after touching in, not touching out, and then when touching in on your
next trip, it detects the out-boundary OEP, and allows the touch in as
normal?

And how does that work if you start your journey in the other
direction? The ticket office at the out-boundary station won't be able
to put a permit on your Oyster card to prevent you getting charged the
maximum fare when touching out at Victoria (or wherever).

On 28 Nov, 13:07, asdf wrote:
But currently holders of Oyster Travelcards (which will be most Oyster
users at peak time) do not have to touch those readers.

This sub-thread is about the suggestion of making touching mandatory
for Oyster Travelcard holders.

Yes, I've read this thread - my point being that those that are
touching out now (and in my experience in the peaks) are NOT holdiung
up those that aren't....I see now difference if everyone has to touch
out. Problems will only occur if the exit is wide and those coming up
the middle have to negotiate a way to the readers on the edge.

And how does that work if you start your journey in the other
direction? The ticket office at the out-boundary station won't be able
to put a permit on your Oyster card to prevent you getting charged the
maximum fare when touching out at Victoria (or wherever).- Hide quoted text -

Indeed, a very good question, which needs addressing fast by the
operators.

On Sat, 28 Nov 2009 05:18:12 -0800 (PST), Chris wrote:

And how does that work if you start your journey in the other
direction? The ticket office at the out-boundary station won't be able
to put a permit on your Oyster card to prevent you getting charged the
maximum fare when touching out at Victoria (or wherever).- Hide quoted text -

Indeed, a very good question, which needs addressing fast by the
operators.

Not really, because (as far as we know) they're not planning on
introducing mandatory touching for Travelcard holders who don't have
an OEP on their card.

Chris wrote:

2). I come home in the peak hours to a station where all passengers have
to
squeeze through a narrow hallway where there will only be a couple of
readers at the side. It is completely unrealistic to expect everyone in
peak
hours to stop to touch out on such limited facilities without serious
problems. There will be tensions with people who are slow, everyone will
have just spent four minutes literally ram packed into poorly laid out
carriages where tempers do get frayed (and it's only the sardine effect
that
stops people being able to swing a punch) and there will be crowds stuck
on
the staircase up from the platform. I can seriously envisage some people
in
a hurry taking a risk and walking across the mainline tracks in the dark
to
use readers on a quiet platform which has an exit directly onto the
street.

They do this at the Waterloo end of the WAterloo & City Line already -
the readers (one each side) cope perfectly well as the hoardes reach
the top of the narrow staircase. I think you'd have more problems if
the staircase *wasn't* narrow, as those climbing the centre of the
staircase try & get to one of the readers at the sides.....

Yes but do all the W&C traffic use PAYG? I would have thought the typical
peak hour user will be on a season ticket. (And I've never known the levels
of physical shoving and forcing one's way onto the train on the W&C that I
see everytime I'm at Stratford in the evening peak. People of the W&C are
more patient, in part because the trains are more frequent.)

If you need an extension to a Oyster Travelcard to a station outside
the PAYG area, surely your only option - as now - is to buy a paper
extension ticket?

Precisely - this was in response to the proposal that *everyone* should be
required to touch in & out or get penalty fares.

To counter the not touching out problem, maybe *also* loading an 'out-
boundary' OEP onto your Oyster would prevent any excess being charged
after touching in, not touching out, and then when touching in on your
next trip, it detects the out-boundary OEP, and allows the touch in as
normal?

Well this is going to require more technology and brings us back to the
problem that National Rail may be *accepting* PAYG but doesn't seem in a
hurry to install it at its stations. It's annoying enough you can't get
extensions from machines and instead have to join lengthy queues to buy
them, but if you've then got to *also* go OEP hunting then it's going to be
a mess.

And a further interesting one to ponder is people who use a regular paper
ticket to go out of zone but then make a through journey back. e.g. if I
needed to get to Shenfield from Forest Gate and the ticket office is closed
I might decide to pay the slight extra to get a paper ticket. But on my
return I might not stop off at Forest Gate but instead go direct to work and
arrive at Mile End via Stratford. Unless the platform readers at Stratford
are retained (making another hole in the system) I wouldn't be able to touch
in. Ad what if I went to Liverpool Street instead?

Chris wrote:

This sub-thread is about the suggestion of making touching mandatory
for Oyster Travelcard holders.

Yes, I've read this thread - my point being that those that are
touching out now (and in my experience in the peaks) are NOT holdiung
up those that aren't....I see now difference if everyone has to touch
out. Problems will only occur if the exit is wide and those coming up
the middle have to negotiate a way to the readers on the edge.

Well it's not just Forest Gate but *many* stations which are not laid out to
cope with mass crowds if they all had to touch out - at the moment it's my
understanding that DLR stations would have problems coping in peak hours.
But sticking to my local station as the one I know best, the volume of the
peak hour crowds is pretty severe and on the occasions we do get ticket
inspectors it's telling they send rather more than two readers and still the
crowd takes ages to get up the stairs and out onto the street. And if near
everybody has to use those readers it will cause the hallway to clog for
ages, it will be difficult for outgoing passengers to touch and get to the
down platform and I thik you will see people taking a risk and trying to
make it to the quiet platform 4 to get out of the station quickly. If you
feel up to it, come to Stratford at about half five one weekday, go to the
eastern end of platform 8 and clamber your way onto the first train for
Forest Gate and you'll see what I mean.